The Problem With Music Distribution–Patrick Jaht & Agam Jamwal, Rewave (Ep 169)
This is the Unstarving Musician podcast. I’m your host, Robonzo. The podcast features conversations between me and indie artist musicians, as well as industry professionals. It’s all to help other indie artists, musicians, be better at marketing business, the creative process and all the other things that empower us to do more of what we love… Make music.
I think that’s two in a row, man. I’m getting pretty good. I’m gonna go straight to my guest today. This is a two part interview in one episode. My guests are Patrick Jaht and Agam Jamwal of Rewave Distribution. Rewave is working on the problem of music distribution; that is they’re working to improve it. In this conversation, we talk about who they are, the challenges that exist within music distribution, how Rewave intends to improve the model. How they found themselves working on the problem. What are the problems? In some cases, it’s cost. In other cases distribution takes forever, royalties arrive late and support is lacking. So Rewave, at the time of this recording, was in beta mode. I believe they still will be (in beta) if you happen to hear this as soon as it publishes, this episode that is. You can learn more about them, including how to sign up for their beta, by finding them on Instagram @rewavedistribution, and there will be a link in the show notes, of course. Okay, here is my two part conversation with the guys at Rewave. First up is Patrick Jaht. Here’s me and Patrick.
One thing I was hoping to get into with you, which Agam and I talked a little bit about, is what are the biggest challenges for artists right now in the area that you guys are serving?
Patrick Jaht 1:58
Yeah, that’s a good question. Agam also told me that you want to put a focus more on artists. And so we looked at what the artist wanted, what are the struggles? What are the challenges? And how can we help the artists overcome the struggles and progress in their career when it comes to music distribution. So we saw that the artist wanted to put their music onto Spotify and other streaming services, because they want the music to get heard by a lot of people. But the problem was, well, it wasn’t a problem. There were already a lot of options to distribute the music and get it to Spotify, and Apple Music and all these other services. But the problem was either it was expensive, or the service in the overall service wasn’t wasn’t, didn’t satisfy the needs of the artists, for example. And so we ran a small marketing campaign in India, and where a lot of upcoming artists are. And all these artists in India they want to get heard. I mean, India is a huge country and there is huge potential, but they don’t have the money. So a challenge for these artists is to find a distributor a way to put their music on Spotify and other Indian streaming services for cheap or for free. And this also happens with other emerging countries like Colombia, and Brazil, Mexico. So basically we offer free distribution and this and this is a way we can help the artist
Do you guys see a future for the the other markets with, you know, US, UK and some of the other ones that have just kind of adopted the existing framework.
Patrick Jaht 4:19
Yeah. I mean, in the US and UK market. The problem isn’t the price. I mean, most artists can pay like $10 per single or something like that. But another problem with these artists, these artists… Price isn’t a problem, but I mean, they paid $10 but then distribution takes forever, or the support isn’t good or the royalties arrived very late. I mean, when you have like artists who make a lot of money and maybe also their living, they want their money to come in time, especially in Corona [Covid-19] where liquidity for a lot of people, it’s very important to pay the rent, for gross groceries. So they want their money to come in quickly. And what we did at Rewave, our priority is to give the money as quickly as possible to these artists, because a lot of distribution companies, they get the money from Spotify, but don’t pay it directly. Because the big companies they also have to be, to have liquidity to pay for those things. So… there’s a delay, and we also looked at Rewave at paying artists before even Spotify spends the money so the way it works is someone puts his music music on Spotify, he earns money. But then it takes a month before Spotify pays off, and we pay the artist to avoid this delay. This payment delay, we think of introducing like an advance, we look at it, like, okay, we receive, we see how much this artist earned, for example, on the dollars but Spotify hasn’t sent us the hundred dollars. So what did we pay the $100 out of our own pocket to the artist, and Spotify and pays and we keep the $100 because we already paid them and, and this way the artists, for example from the UK and the US and other places have the ability to get their money quicker without having huge lead time. And this Corona virus crisis This is a big advantage, I think.
Yeah, what is the long term for sustaining Rewave? You know, meeting all the the costs that you guys have, how are you? I don’t… Agam and I didn’t talk extensively about this, but yeah, how how are you going to sustain this?
Patrick Jaht 7:28
Yeah. So basically, when you look at five years ago, we couldn’t have offered this free distribution or this royalty advanced system, which we haven’t introduced, but there’s a big possibility that we do that. But basically in 2020, with all this technology, and all the opportunities, and music, the cost for music distribution is a very low one, compared to like five years ago. So we have the opportunity to offer this free music distribution to artists, because we also look at… We have efficient cost management. So, this means, this this model is sustainable. For example, with this the free model is sustainable, because we can keep the costs low. And this advance… this royalty advance system will also be sustainable because we I mean, we live in Switzerland and companies in Switzerland… Swiss banks with strong credit rating for most companies. And I mean if it should be necessary to take out a loan, for example, to pay advances, this could also be possible, but we don’t think that we have to pay this much advances that we ran out of cash.
And do I recall correctly? Or do I understand correctly that part of the revenue will be from royalty share, or no?
Patrick Jaht 9:23
Yeah. Okay. So currently, we have a free model where the artists keep 90%, we can 10%, and the 10% are basically to cover the cost for distribution and also as our profit and as you see, 10% might sound low, small, I mean, and it is small, but the costs are also small. And if you scale it to thousand, 10,000, hundred thousand artists, then yeah it is pretty sustainable and we also can make a profit.
Okay, so you guys. Yeah, I guess it’s fair to say you’re a freemium model. So you have like a free version, and then either you’re introducing or you have introduced a pay, a pay one where they get certain perks for that. And you guys get a little bit more of the cut for that.
Patrick Jaht 10:16
Yeah, correc. Yeah.
Okay. So can you get into any of the mechanics of how you guys are solving, for instance, the service problem? So I think you kind of gave me an idea of yeah, you gave us a good idea of getting payouts happening faster. What about the service side of it?
Patrick Jaht 10:41
Yeah so a when it comes to time management and time efficiency. You have, first of all, the user who logged in registers himself in then… This is this… This is I mean, you can’t optimize it, but what you can optimize when a user creates a release, this release must be checked for error. For example, the covers too small, it has explicit lyrics, but wasn’t marked as explicit. And all these these errors can be fixed. So this costs a lot of time for this artist. And what we did, we tried… Right now… When a release comes in, so when a release is created, we check it. And we, if there are errors, we tell the user just to fix these errors, or we fix them ourselves if they are minor. And if there are no errors, we tend to to Spotify and Apple Music.
So what’s the usual… what’s the usual turnaround time like in the traditional model? How long was that process taking compared to what you guys are doing?
Patrick Jaht 12:03
So, I would say, between the release creation and the release appearing in the store. I mean, you can say that the release, you can specify the release date, but I think there are, I mean, I think there’s we we took the time on, let’s say, like, three, four, up to seven days, and some other companies take two to three weeks for that. We, currently we’re doing it in one to two days. And this is possible because we’re not we don’t have a huge overload. But all the companies that are there are thousands of artists, and what they do is manually, they have the… they have persons employees who check the release manually and tell the user you have to fix this. And how we want to do it is by introducing artificial intelligence. And we’re doing it right now. So, it is in development. So, what will be happening is a release is created and instead of having a human check it, you have artificial intelligence check it and therefore, time is is cut down by by over… I mean you can… artificial intelligence can check the release within minutes. And we will have artificial intelligence will look at the release and say, Okay, these errors must be fixed and we’ll tell the user automatically and if there are errors, which a human need to look at, then we will have also humans who will look at the release and this way instead of waiting, like, one to three weeks to get your release, checked and put into stores, you can can have it in hours? Yeah.
Okay. Pretty cool. What’s the timeline or the hope for getting that feature enabled?
Patrick Jaht 14:24
I mean, we are. So currently we will have… we are in the beta phase. And we’re developing our new platform which will be launched in around November. Due to Corona virus, we had to delay it a bit, but we are working. We put a lot of time and effort and money into this new platform. So in November this platform will be released and when… the first version of the platform will be released, we will be working on artificial intelligence with a designated team, which are experts in the field of artificial intelligence. And what we will do is we will train the AI. So we will… The more input via the AI and machine learning has, the better it can function. And we’re thinking 2021 it will be… the artificial intelligence system we’ll be working… perfectly.
Cool. That will be exciting.
Um, so, okay. I was gonna ask about near term goals for Rewave. Obviously, the November release, and all the tech around AI is part of that. Are there any other things that are sort of on the near term roadmap that you can share, that you guys really want to do?
Patrick Jaht 16:01
Yes, so we also wanted to introduce different pricing plans. And by that we don’t mean like, you know, the regular pricing model. The free, the premium, you pay a fee or an annual fee. But we also want to implement in the pricing plan not only how much for example, the free plan is you pay nothing and get only 90% of the royalties, or you pay a certain fee or annual fee and get 100% of the royalties. This is the standard pricing plan which you’ll see on the internet. What we want to do is we want to implement in the pricing plan also other things, for example, priority. So when you have a label… for example, has a few million followers or… makes… like $10,000 a month in royalty. They want, for example let’s say they want to pay more money and get even more support. So if you pay more, you get priority support and… we want to also implement other things in the pricing pricing plans. Like for example priority support, where you talk to support [team], because we also had some clients who said, “Okay look. I like your like your free plan and like all your plans, [but] want to spend more money to receive even more support and other things. I don’t know if you understood that.
Yeah, totally. Um, so does this mean that the client base, maybe there’s others too, but I am realizing now it’s not just individual artists, but also labels are among the clients and prospective clients. Are there other ones that we haven’t talked about yet?
Patrick Jaht 18:34
They are artists or groups and labels.
That’s interesting. Well, and anything else that you can think of that artists or maybe even labels or industry followers would want to know about? What you guys are doing or about the industry itself, I mean the space that you’re in?
Patrick Jaht 19:06
Yeah, so… did you mean like how we how we work as a company?
Well, anything that you feel is important to build awareness about it, specifically about what you guys are doing, or you know something about the space either one.
Patrick Jaht 19:27
Yeah. When you see it music news, for example, especially in hip hop. I am Hippo fan, and I read a lot about hip hop and each week there is a headline for example, there is some news about a an artist who signed a contract with a major label like Sony, Universal, Warner to distribute his music. But the problem is that 90% of all these deals, they give the ownership of the masters, of the music, to the label. They gave the ownership of their music to the label for a percentage of the earnings and some advanc. And the problem is these musicians get exploited. I mean, you have, like big musicians who don’t own the music, it’s their music. They created it, but they don’t own it. Because they signed a standard contract with a major label. And the problem is these artists they don’t know this. They don’t know what they’re doing. I mean they have lawyers of course, and they know what… They’re like in tunnel vision. They don’t know what else there. I think they just look at it and say okay. This is my option to put music on Spotify, so I will take it. They don’t see other options like independent music distribution, for example other now I can no, no him, but Russ is a hip hop artist. And he is a let’s say a pioneer, but he often talks about independent music distribution, and tells and influences other artists who also choose independent music distribution for example on his Instagram. Recently, he showed some screenshots from his earnings from his releases, which he released independently. And he showed that he made millions of dollars with just a few songs, because it distributed them independently and kept 100% of the earnings. So this is the major, major issue with artists who signed to labels like Universal or Sony Music, but they give away the ownership of the masters. And this is not good for them. If if you also see in the long term, I mean, a music and record can make royalties for your life. But if you give it away, and you also might get some one time payment, and in 10 years, you have nothing. There is no cash flow.
Who’s the artists that you mentioned again that’s on the Instagram and
Patrick Jaht 22:54
It’s Russ. R-U-S-S.
I would like to check that out. That’s cool. Cool story. Russ. That seems like it would be a tough username to get.
Patrick Jaht 23:08
So where’s he from?
Patrick Jaht 23:14
He’s from the U.S. And what is also interesting about him, he is not only rapped [a rapper], but he also produces music, and also mixes and masters as music. So you have today… you have a lot of artists who who just only rap. You have a lot of people who just only produce music, and you have a lot of people who just mix and master the music. And what he does is he produces the music, the beat I mean, he mixes and masters and wraps over the beat. He does it all and he distributed independently. So, yeah, he knows what he’s doing.
Yeah, that’s cool. Is he… Does he work with you guys by chance? Or have you had you have any kind of relationship with him?
Patrick Jaht 24:06
So no, we don’t work [with him]… He’s a multiplatinum… I mean, he has like, 7 million Instagram followers. So he’s too big for us.
Maybe someday, right? Yes, it says 3.3 million followers on Instagram
Patrick Jaht 24:26
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Yeah… I see what you say. He’s a great model and champion, or champion for the model that you guys are trying to create. So and certainly we can think of others I was, you know, thinking of a some stories I’ve heard about artists that didn’t own their own music. And then you have like Prince and many others who bucked the system and did things very independently and did quite well. All artists are not created equal. However… Certainly something for budding artists to to consider. That’s pretty cool. So what is the best way for artists to learn more about what you’re doing? Is that by chance the beta.re wave.ch or is it Instagram?
Patrick Jaht 25:25
Yes, so they can know more about this on Instagram or on our website. Okay. And the one challenge for us is to get this exposure. A lot of people know that our music distribution companies, but they don’t know us. I mean, we try to do marketing, but this is also a challenge for us because the people know there are some Tunecore or DistroKit. But… we might be a better option for a lot of artists, but they don’t know us. So they can’t choose the best option for them. So this is a challenge.
Patrick, thank you very much for spending time with me to have this conversation. It’s a… it’s an interesting idea, interesting platform, and I wish you guys all the best.
Patrick Jaht 26:25
Yeah, yeah. Thank you very much for having me on your podcast. And take care.
You got it. Cheers.
All right. And part two of my two part interview with the guys that Rewave is coming right up. I want to talk to you first about Bandzoogle. Why do I always bring Bandzoogle up? Look, I use them as a musician and if you are an artist, or a band, and don’t have a good website, I encourage you to check out Bandzoogle. It really is an all in one pro platform for musicians and bands and I care because it’s one of the things that will help You keep control of your music business and your fan base community. That and and your email list and bandzoogle can actually even help you with that too. Believe me, podcasters, PR reps, management labels, venues they all look at your website. And yes, I know they look at your social too, but they do look to see if you have a website. And if you have a good one, they take you more seriously, and you’re helping them out as well. So if you’re really serious about the business of your music, you need to have a solid website. So if you don’t have that yet, go to Bandzoogle.com to check out a 30 day free trial. You can use the promo code ROBONZO to get 15% off your first year, and plans start at just $8.29 a month. That’s pretty good. It’s as easy to use as easy gets for this kind of thing. You don’t have to worry about plugins or security updates. And if you don’t know what I’m talking about there, you’ll be glad that you don’t know! Bandzoogle takes care of all that stuff for you. Again, I use it; I really love it. You can see my website at robonzo.com. Go to Bandzoogle.com use the promo code Robonzo R O B O N Z O to start your free trial today.
And now this is the second part of my conversation with the guys from Rewave. And in this part I talked to Agam Jamwal who’s one of the founders. We talked a little more about the challenges of music distribution and a bit about the business and technology aspects of Rewave. Alright, here’s me and Agam Jamwal.
Well, let’s talk about your company. You guys are still in beta mode. And do you have a couple of different things, part of it that’s in beta mode and part of it that’s not?
Agam Jamwal 28:36
Oh, I can give you a brief overview. We started off like almost a year ago. And at first we were like, just a Social Media Marketing Agency kind of, and we promoted artists on Instagram. But then we realized that to help the artist in the most applicable way was to distribute their music onto streaming services. Like really get it out there. And that’s when we half a year later launched our distribution service with the, as you mentioned in beta mode. We gathered applicants for our website and we had a dashboard set up to which they could distribute their releases. And now we are working on a new website, which will be launched in November, from which, the artists, which we have now gathered (the applicants), and they will then be using the new website, which will be launched in November.
Is that going to be out of beta mode officially then or is that kind of the goal right now?
Agam Jamwal 29:53
Yeah, we’ll be then we’ll be out of beta mostly.
Cool. All right. So give me a rundown of the business model and how the new model is working. And by the way, you you mentioned that you started as a social media network and then you launch this distribution service where you guys… What’s your situation with funding? Are you guys on venture capital? Are you privately funded? And was this part of a necessary pivot because of investment or?
Agam Jamwal 30:23
No. So when we switched from the social media agencies to the distribution service, it was just because we wanted to do something different to be more engaged with the artists and we are privately funded. There is no, there are no investments. And what we do is we have to differentiate ourselves from the eight to ten prominent distributors that are out there. We have got like two different type of models. The first one is a quite like the normal one where we take 10% of the royalties, from which the artists make. And the artist can choose between two models, they can keep 90% and we take 10% or they can pay $6 and keep 100% of the, of the royalties. Now, we were thinking for November, for the new website, we will then reduce this, we will only be taking 5% of the royalties just to kind of differentiate ourselves more from the other distributors. Also, you know, we heard from plenty of artists that they’re really that they’re unhappy with, for example, with Tunecore, DistroKid and all just because they are, they’re extremely slow. That’s what we read through reviews and all; and that they are inefficient with their royalty payout. And we just want to kind of speed up all these these processes which which in the end should help the artists?
Okay. And then, so I was going to ask, now I’m even more curious; is the royalty share part of how you guys make money or is there? How else do you make money? Is there another way or is this gonna be it?
Agam Jamwal 32:23
No So okay, so this is one. This is the one way. Now we’re also thinking of working with another a bigger social media agency who promotes artists. They’re bigger and we will work with them together to also earn money by suggesting artists and all that, but in the future I think the most important way will be the royalty share. Yeah…
And obviously through scale, I guess, of artists that are on there. So it sounds like you guys sort of still consider yourself in a way, you know, you haven’t gotten completely away from your social media agency roots. Because… I say that because of the way you said that you were going to partner with another social media agency… That you’re contemplating that. How has that… How have those roots, those beginnings impacted the way you think about the business so far?
Agam Jamwal 33:31
You know, we realized that if you look at there’s so many artists on Instagram, let’s just look at Instagram for now. And we understood that it was extremely, extremely difficult for these artists to really, really get out there to sell their music or just maybe not even sell the music but be available on all platforms, or internationally; and naturally there are you can do it organically. You can push yourself, you can do it all by yourself, if you’ve got the talent, the hard work, the persistence to do it. But there are many times artists still… they do need help from another party to really elevate their career or really push themselves forward because it can be stagnant at times. And we’ve also heard that from many artists, which is why the roots in the social media agency are still there. Because we think that is one possible way to help artists, other than really distributing their music directly onto these onto these platforms, but rather then also promote that (artist).
What um… going back to the, the core business as it is at the moment with distribution, you mentioned the survey or the complaints that you heard from artists about some of the, you know, the six to eight other known distributors or major distribution channels, providers. What have you guys seen thus far, as far as the challenges with distribution? So sorry, to make that a little more concise, what are the biggest challenges for artists when it comes to distribution?
Agam Jamwal 34:56
Biggest challenge, which we see is the communication between the artist and the distributor itself, because we have heard also because you know, efficiency and the speed. It mostly relies upon the communication between both parties, and which is why we also understood that the distributors have a rather slow support system, and artists cannot really get what they wanted to in time, and it was usually many times delayed. And yeah, this is a big challenge for sure in the distribution market, but also the entire pricing system. Because what we understood is that artists want to be able to take full control of their catalog. They want to be able to be flexible with their pricing, they want to in the end have the entire royalties, because in the end, they are the independent artists, which is why we are also kind of figuring out the different pricing models to really differentiate ourselves from the other distributors, because right now there’s just this common idea or principle to say 10% 5% 16% of the royalty share. But I’m sure this is something which is a challenge. And must be… will be changed in the future.
So I was I was going to ask, I think you sort of answered part of it just now with the pricing or started to anyway. But how… How is Rewave solving these problems, especially the first one, because I didn’t hear anything along that line. So how are you solving the communication problem? And then if there’s anything to add on the pricing part too, go ahead and let me know.
Agam Jamwal 37:28
In terms of communication, and we’re gonna see we’re going to really work hard on our support system. We’re going to do it differently than most others. A lot of WhatsApp direct support help. Another big point, which we’re going to implement, is machine learning. So, what we are going to do in our moderation, I’m sure you’re aware of it about on moderation, but I’ll just tell it again. So the artists have to go through this whole moderation process, which takes a lot of time. And then the distributor needs to approve this, and then finally your release is distributed. So, this whole moderation process is what creates the most communication problems, because some track detail is missing. Then the distributor has to reach out to the artist, and the artists again back to the distributor. And this is… really time consuming, which is why we are planning on implementing artificial intelligence and machine learning in the moderation process, which will help artists make almost zero mistakes First of all, and second of all, it will speed up the entire process because artists will get a get an answer if their releases approved in a fraction of the time. And yeah, this is what we’re going to do in terms of the communication. In terms of the pricing structure… This is a part, which we’re still thinking a lot about, because it was not really easy to come up with some… with a new idea that we’re still working on that. But ultimately, we really want to give give the artists almost 100% of the royalties, But we need to still figure out how to then make money.
So that means for you guys like an alternate source, and sorry, if you just said this, I didn’t quite catch it. But that means that you guys have to look for alternate sources of revenue, I guess… even though you’re already doing that, but that that would be the case, right? Sorry, that’s kind of obvious, I guess. Okay, interesting, and how… I know the AI and machine learning applications and what you’re talking about are, are prevalent…, maybe even pervasive now. You know, becoming more prevalent and maybe even pervasive now, but how, in your opinion? How good will those systems be? I guess, at the time when you really start implementing them, so I’ve had no, you know, personal experience working with an organization that’s doing that. Is there? Is there a period of time where… you need time for it to adapt and for your team to sort of help build that stuff once it gets launched? Or is it going to just dramatically, from the beginning, dramatically change your ability to improve communications for instance.
Agam Jamwal 40:40
No in my opinion. Most of these new ideas, we can have a testing period. We already testing a couple of things out now. Because we need to first of all gain insight and knowledge and how it will exactly work, if it’s even possible in the first place, because in the end, this is a, this is kind of like it’s a robot, so it’s not human. And understanding the human is going to be… the difficult part. So we[re already testing now a couple of things, running some stuff, and we need to, as you mentioned, have kind of a testing period to really understand that the software is going to be viable for the future or not.
Have you seen some use cases where… or can you talk about the use cases you’ve seen that encourage you the most, where you’re like, “Wow, if we can do adapt that level of effectiveness to what we do, it would be fantastic!” Or are you still… is everyone that’s playing with this stuff right now still, you know, kind of doing what you’re saying you guys are gonna do? You’re gonna test it, figure out if it actually is going to work the way you want, and whether it’s really feasible.
Agam Jamwal 42:04
All right, I didn’t get the I didn’t get the questions.
Just really have you seen some use cases where companies are doing something similar that you are, that excite you about the possibility of this use of AI and machine learning for what you’re trying to do with it.
Agam Jamwal 42:23
So, basically, what we have realized is that if you can look at any market, there will be AI implemented somewhere. It’s basically integrating itself into almost every segment of the market, which is why a small niche market like music distribution could possibly also need it. This is how we actually found, like this is how we actually came up with the whole idea. So, there are no… in terms of music distribution. Now there are no use cases which we have seen so far. No
Okay, cool. Um, how did you actually get involved? What I was really trying to ask what was your interest in, in being involved in a business like this? And I know now that I’m asking the question, I realized you guys started as, well even when the social media agency it sounds like the focus was on music artists. I’m really, I’d like love to know, what was your draw to that niche market.
Agam Jamwal 43:29
The people who I work with the co founder, all my friends, we all we all love music. That’s first of all, as the most important point. We love… We’ve always been listening to music like all the time, always. Every Friday we look out for new releases. We like like rap, hip hop, German rap and this is also kind of why we were so excited to really get into the music business. So it actually started like this. We were…, everybody’s on Instagram. And we just realized that there were so many independent arts, there were so many musicians who were just were posting videos of themselves, and rapping, rapping on making beats, so producing this kind of music. And we thought to ourselves, this is a market, which there’s like, there’s so much so much variety. So there are plenty of ways to do things in this market. So first of all… then we thought of helping them by doing this on marketing, and now we are distributor. So this is basically where it all started off.
Cool. Going back to something we were talking about earlier, or something you said earlier, which was a little trivial, but it’s just for my own curiosity because I’m personally learning about distribution. Can you tell me who the like you mentioned that you said there were like six or eight well known distributors I’m familiar with Tunecore Distro Kid and I don’t even know if it’s called, if this division of CD Baby is called CD Baby, but I know they have something Can you tell me who the others are?
Agam Jamwal 45:21
Yeah, so as you mentioned Tunecore Distro Kid, CD Baby, Amuse they’re new, United Masters. There is A W A L. Those are like the main ones that are coming to my head right now. Otherwise there is… these are like the main ones from the United, from like North America. CD Baby you said. I think that’s the, that’s the name. There’s also like, Ditto Music.
Okay, okay, cool. I actually love the what we’ve talked about and like I said, I may put it on my small business podcast, I think… I have a technology background from working with startups in Silicon Valley so it would be fun for me to have this as an episode on there, and I don’t know, maybe we will be surprised that some of my audience is actually pretty interested.
Agam Jamwal 46:23
Yeah for sure. It was a good conversation.
Agam Jamwal 46:25
Yeah, yeah, have a have a pleasant weekend and and stay well.
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