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Welcome to episode 330 of The Unstarving Musician.

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I am Robonzo.

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This is my podcast.

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How are you?

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Where are you?

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How are you feeling?

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What are you wearing?

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How’s your weather?

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I hope it’s great.

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And if it’s not, I hope you’re enjoying it anyway.

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Big news in the music world and my drumming world.

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Matt Cameron of Pearl Jam announced that he was leaving the band after 27 years.

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Amazing.

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What a career.

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When I first started getting into the band, they had Dallas native Dave Ebercesi playing drums with them.

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But obviously I know who Matt Cameron is from his sound garden days and all the work he’s done with Pearl Jam in recent years.

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Well, over the years, not recent, but for most of their existence.

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It will be interesting to see what happens to them.

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There was some rumors that Cameron would join Foo Fighters, but the industry buzz says Shane Hawkins, son of Taylor Hawkins, will fill the chair replacing Josh Frees, who I guess was let go back in May.

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I didn’t even know that until I started hearing about Matt Cameron and this rumor that he might join them.

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So anyway, I don’t guess that’s going to happen.

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We’ll see.

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Who knows?

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I know Matt Cameron is going to do something again.

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Today I’m joined by Steve Pasieka.

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I gave him a little Spanish pronunciation there.

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I believe he says Pasieka.

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The creative force, he is the creative force behind Skulk the Hulking, a project that pushes the boundaries of what independent music can be.

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Steve combines hardcore music, comedy improv and cutting edge AI tech to create a multimedia experience that spans music, visual art and podcasting.

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When the pandemic shut down live performance, Steve transformed his entire creative approach, launching a fictional video podcast called The Many Incessant Lives and Subsequent Deaths Deserved of Skulk the Hulking and dove deep into AI generated visuals to do it.

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His work represents the kind of forward thinking and cross disciplinary artistry that can and probably will reshape the way indie musicians will build their careers in the future.

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In this conversation, Steve and I talk about how he evolved from live performance art and noise rock to creating this multimedia project that blends music, AI generated visuals and storytelling.

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We explore his background in both hardcore music and comedy improv and how these different worlds seem to inform his creative process.

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He offers insights on incorporating AI while maintaining creative authenticity.

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Steve shares specific AI tools that he uses, the communities that helped him learn, and how he harnesses the quirks and obstacles of these tools of which there are many to fuel his creativity.

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Really interesting stuff.

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You can find his work at skulkthehulking.com.

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His podcast, his video podcast is on both Spotify and YouTube, possibly some of the other platforms.

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I’ll put a link in the show notes to the Spotify place to find it.

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Well, without further ado, here is me speaking with Steve Pasieka of Skulk the Hulking.

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I like your guitars.

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Thank you.

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How’s the PR thing going for you?

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It’s got some good things about it.

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We’re running into a lot of pushback from media outlets about the generative AI aspect of the podcast that I’m doing.

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It’s funny because I went into the whole generative AI thing because I thought we all need to learn a little more about it and know what exactly it is.

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You would be right.

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Yeah.

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And I find it very funny that a lot of places don’t want to talk about it when it’s so prevalent right now, and it’s not going to go away, you know?

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And I think there’s some positives, some negatives.

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There’s things we need to look out for.

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There’s things that I think it can be used for.

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But yeah, it’s been interesting to go through.

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This is probably one of the bigger PR campaigns that I’ve done.

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And I don’t know, the States is very weird, I feel like, about how PR works.

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And I almost did PR in Europe instead, especially since my wife and I are considering moving there.

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She’s originally from Greece.

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But I decided I liked, I like Andrew a lot.

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I think he gets the project, you know, and he gets what it is.

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I just, the States isn’t a very weird place right now, as I’m sure you know.

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And I think, I think the fears are legitimate, you know, but I think aiming at the tool that is currently being used to exploit and possibly oppress people, I think doesn’t deal with the actual issue, which is we’re a country full of people trying to oppress and exploit people, you know.

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And until you take care of them, they will continue to find new tools to use, you know.

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It’s frightening and depressing, isn’t it?

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Yeah, and that’s definitely why we have the thoughts of just cutting and running, you know.

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Like, I don’t know.

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We’ll see.

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Well, we kind of share that you and I, or you and your wife and me and mine, we actually burned the proverbial boats and moved to Panama in 2016.

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And then, a little over three years ago, came to Mexico, partly because the pandemic taught us an unexpected lesson about getting locked into a place so far away from where most of your friends and family are.

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Fair, fair.

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And yeah, and I have actually have family and familial roots in Mexico.

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So there were some some nice things about that as well.

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So nice.

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Yeah, we are.

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But anyway, yeah, we’re kind of.

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Where were you?

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Where were you before Panama?

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San Jose, California.

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Oh, OK.

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Yeah, for 17 years I was born in Fort Worth, Texas, and my wife and I met in Arlington.

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And so we spent a number of years there.

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We actually just celebrated our 36th wedding anniversary, 31 together to give some.

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Congratulations.

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Thank you.

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I say we celebrate.

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We celebrated.

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We didn’t get celebrate because I got I had about a unfortunate bout of food poisoning.

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But the celebration is coming a week from this weekend.

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So we rescheduled.

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I’m sure it will be wonderful.

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But yeah, yeah.

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So I I feel you.

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So you mentioned podcasting.

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You get something clear in my head.

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Do you also do your own podcast or you’re just out trying to get on podcasts?

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No, no, no.

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So I so the whole thing that I put out is a vodcast.

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So it’s a it’s a fictional story that uses Skulk the Hulking music that I wrote.

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And I and I wrote the story with a friend.

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And the only part that’s generative AI is the visuals to go along with the story.

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Okay.

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And so it’s out, you know, I have it on Spotify and YouTube, but also on the website, you know.

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So it is a story and I’m continuing to write like shorts that continue this story.

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Okay.

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Well, thanks for clarifying that.

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I somehow missed that part.

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When you said podcasting, though I say I missed it, but I’m like, you know what I think I did read about the podcast.

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I’ve seen some of the work and I guess I was kind of stopped there after I checked some out.

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I like it, by the way.

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It’s pretty cool.

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And I like the story behind how you got, at least what I understand of it, how you got from where you were to here.

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Yeah, it seems like kind of a great pivot story, which I hope we’ll talk about.

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And then there seemed like some cool intersections of the music genre that you do this kind of hardcore music, which I’m reading that from my notes because I was trying to describe the music to my wife last night.

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I’m like, it’s kind of got like a metal voicing, but almost like a pop musicality.

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I think that’s fair.

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That’s really what I aimed for in my music.

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I always liked the more aggressive stuff, but I always liked when my musical point was 90s.

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So I like when it took different genres and brought it with some pop sensibility.

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So I try to do that in what I do as well.

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I know you’ll get a kick out of this because whenever I hear this type of voicing or this genre voicing, I think of the band Pantera.

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I went to high school with Rex and the Brothers Abbott.

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No way.

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In fact, we were friends, especially myself, especially with Rex.

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And then probably Darryl and I was acquainted with his brother Vinny or Vince as he was known back then.

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So anyway, yeah.

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That’s amazing.

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They’re kind of like the granddaddies of that sort of…

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Oh yeah, for sure.

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Yeah, so it’s a lot of years.

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I can’t believe it.

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Where the time went.

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So what is the quick sort of surface level question here?

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What’s the story between the Skulk the Hulking name?

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I was in Chicago and I was doing improv and I really got such an amazing lesson there.

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Like I got to work with some of the greats.

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And when I moved to New York, the comedy scene just wasn’t what I thought it would be.

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And I always wanted to do music, so I did that music.

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So I started creating the music.

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I needed a name.

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I didn’t really have anything.

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And one morning I woke up and just the name Skulk, the Hulking popped into my head.

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And I was like, what a great way to describe like, the Skulk persona is this kind of futility of trying to do good, but messing up a lot and having to learn from those lessons.

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And so I was like, what a funny idea of like, how can something hulking be able to skulk and sneak?

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You know, like it seems like it’s almost impossible.

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And so I kind of, when I set it in my head, I said it out loud and I was just like, I think it really fits the idea behind the whole idea, you know?

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Yeah, it’s unique and it somehow visually fits.

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I’ve not made the time to get completely familiar with the story that you’ve been developing, but it’ll give me something to kind of go relook at.

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For sure.

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And get it that way.

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And so there’s a character aspect of it as well.

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Was there particular inspiration for that?

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So, yeah, definitely.

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Skulk was very much…

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When I started writing music, and I saw it as that way to get out those frustrations I had with what was happening, especially in America.

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And I always, coming from that improv world, I used to love to have characters on stage.

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Originally, like, in the Skulk world, there’s Lady Baghead, and she kind of represents, like, government and just the overlooking, all-knowledgeable, you know, thoughts that rule our day-to-day lives.

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And she started from…

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I was really in love with Magritte’s The Lover’s painting.

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I love Magritte, and I had two friends dress up as that painting and just sit behind us during a performance, and they just maintain that pose for the 30-minute show that we did.

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And slowly, she started showing up in music videos that we were doing.

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Same thing with Hammer Hands.

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Same things with Camelman.

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Camelman was a buddy of mine who put on a camel mask and wore his whitey-tities and used to pull out lollipops from his underwear and hand it out to an audience, you know.

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They all kind of started from just these thoughts.

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But slowly, I started to realize I was putting meaning on them.

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And I thought it was just a good place.

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You know, there always was a story and people always were like, what’s the story?

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Just as you’re asking, you know.

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So I thought, why not put a full story together?

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And now I’ve enjoyed it so much that I’m kind of continuing, especially with Skulk always dying and being spit back out by Earth.

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You get to kind of tell stories from different moments or different lessons.

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And you learn the lesson through Skulk not learning the lesson until it’s too late, you know.

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Yeah, yeah.

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It sounds like the from the improv part of it that that contributed to the character both as something that was a backdrop, but was it also in my hearing that was actually also maybe a little bit part of the improv scene, the immediate scene that you were part of?

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No, definitely.

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I feel I was when I was in the improv scene, I was I was there for it was right after Del Close had started Improv Olympic in Chicago and I started improv maybe five years after he passed away.

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And so I got to train under those people who learned directly from Del and really were the ones who were turning it into an art form, you know, and they were very much about creating worlds and creating, continuing to dig deeper into what you’re finding.

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And I always loved that.

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I was like, that applies to all art forms, you know, and I just kind of pulled that with me and I wanted everyone to be a part of that at the shows and experience that together.

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Talk a little bit more about how the music of the 90s or any other eras that you appreciate kind of help with the comedy improv aspect to sort of form this combination.

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I actually, I think it’s so funny because like, I don’t, I never really put those two together, but just you asking that makes me realize a bit like 90s was that, especially that 90s, what would they call it?

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Like not grand, but like even the new metal, which everyone loves to hate on, you know?

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There was some very unique, I look towards probably my favorite band from that era, System of a Down, you know, they were more towards the end.

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But they really, they really taught me like, how goofy System of a Down can be.

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But also still in the exact same song, they’re doing a very, they’re talking about very serious things, problems in the world, problems in America.

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And I realized they were making it more palatable.

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They were making people learn things by making them have fun.

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And I think I really wanted to bring that along with me as well.

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I also think there was this nice acceptance of different styles.

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Like everyone was okay with each other in the 90s.

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I feel like music, I’m talking about musically, we definitely still had problems socially.

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But it was so nice to like come home, turn on TRL, and see like what’s considered the pop of the time.

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And you have, you know, you have Grunge, you have New Metal, you have boy bands, you have Britney Spears, you have Latin music, you have rap, you know.

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And it was all together, all one right after another.

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And that’s part of music that I love, too, is exploring different unknown or unexpected forms of music, and seeing how they fit with other forms of music.

00:17:14.480 –> 00:17:21.920
Because there is a lot of overlap in many musics that weren’t necessarily from the same place or time.

00:17:21.940 –> 00:17:23.340
Right.

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I often have to have this pointed out to me by some, you know, really thoughtful, masterful musician who just happens to like bring it to my attention, because I will miss a lot of those commonalities, or at least some of the ones that aren’t blatantly obvious, right?

00:17:37.160 –> 00:17:39.040
But it’s interesting.

00:17:39.040 –> 00:17:41.360
So you kind of did this for me when we first started talking.

00:17:41.360 –> 00:17:48.480
But for people who are who discover you for the first time, how would you describe what Skulk the Hulking actually is?

00:17:49.600 –> 00:17:54.940
I would say Skulk the Hulking is first and foremost performance art.

00:17:56.580 –> 00:18:07.760
I even though now it is a character in a podcast that I’ve created, Skulk is kind of many things.

00:18:08.220 –> 00:18:14.140
It’s the music, it’s the character, it’s in all of us.

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Skulk is that frustration that we have with things that don’t feel right.

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And it’s our ability to laugh at our inability to manage it well.

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Because a lot of times we don’t.

00:18:31.800 –> 00:18:36.400
But more specifically, I guess, it is a…

00:18:36.400 –> 00:18:44.900
It’s a mix of music that is a mix of hip hop, metal, and pop.

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And the character is this ever-recurring beast that has to try and do what the world wants it to do, even though he’s not equipped to do it.

00:18:59.040 –> 00:19:00.040
Right.

00:19:00.040 –> 00:19:11.280
And I assumed that the AI aspect of what you’re doing with Hulk the Skulking is largely limited to the visual aspect.

00:19:11.440 –> 00:19:17.480
Has it crept into the music aspect, or are you still kind of doing music in a more traditional way as you had before?

00:19:17.480 –> 00:19:20.660
Right now, the only AI is the visual.

00:19:20.660 –> 00:19:23.320
Like, I actually…

00:19:23.320 –> 00:19:28.280
What’s so funny is how opinionated I am about the visual aspect.

00:19:28.640 –> 00:19:33.420
A generative AI, which there is a lot of backlash for.

00:19:33.420 –> 00:19:39.760
I don’t necessarily have an opinion on even written generative AI or music generative AI.

00:19:39.760 –> 00:19:53.960
I haven’t explored it at all, and so I don’t think it’s fair for me to have an opinion on it, necessarily, until I do possibly at one point explore it.

00:19:56.880 –> 00:20:07.840
It’s possible that I don’t feel so bad about the generative AI from a visual standpoint, is that I’ve never considered myself a visual artist, you know?

00:20:08.180 –> 00:20:23.960
I view it as a tool that helps me be the storyteller that I am, that helps me give a venue for my music that I love creating, but I’ve never felt compelled to be a visual artist.

00:20:23.960 –> 00:20:24.580
Right.

00:20:24.580 –> 00:20:25.760
Until now.

00:20:25.760 –> 00:20:26.660
Until now.

00:20:26.660 –> 00:20:38.180
And what’s funny is, is it’s teaching me by doing this generative AI experiment, it’s taught me there is an artistry to it.

00:20:38.180 –> 00:20:48.960
There is a conversation you have to have with the AI, which is informed by all of us, you know?

00:20:48.960 –> 00:21:05.860
So it is this kind of conversation you’re having with the rest of the world, and with the rest of how other people visualize the things you’re describing, which I didn’t expect when I first went into this.

00:21:05.940 –> 00:21:13.020
It’s made me rethink what words I use, it’s made me rethink what words mean to me.

00:21:15.500 –> 00:21:20.140
And it’s really, it’s changed me.

00:21:20.140 –> 00:21:27.340
It’s kind of interesting to see how I view what I’m putting out even.

00:21:27.340 –> 00:21:29.340
Yeah, I could see that.

00:21:29.340 –> 00:21:30.280
Paint us a picture.

00:21:30.280 –> 00:21:32.080
Did you do live shows before?

00:21:32.080 –> 00:21:32.660
Yes.

00:21:32.680 –> 00:21:37.640
Okay, so can you paint a picture of like then and now?

00:21:37.640 –> 00:21:46.540
When I was doing live shows, I will say I’m not the biggest fan of New York as a venue for live shows.

00:21:47.640 –> 00:21:58.780
Everyone is involved in other things, and it’s so hard to get everyone pushing in the same direction, you know?

00:21:58.780 –> 00:22:04.040
Everyone who was part of the live performances had their own things they were working on.

00:22:04.040 –> 00:22:06.840
And in some ways, that’s great, and they’re bringing in new stuff.

00:22:07.740 –> 00:22:19.420
But also, it’s all on you, because this is your project, and we have other projects that we are working on ourselves.

00:22:20.860 –> 00:22:28.140
And coming from the improv scene in Chicago, where when you were a team, you lived and died together.

00:22:28.980 –> 00:22:32.260
You hung out five days a week, you know?

00:22:32.260 –> 00:22:34.380
Like you were a unit.

00:22:35.200 –> 00:22:38.900
This felt more, you’re, you know, Voltron.

00:22:39.040 –> 00:22:41.700
You’re pulling together a bunch of different things.

00:22:41.700 –> 00:22:44.340
And don’t get me wrong, it does have a ton of benefits.

00:22:44.340 –> 00:22:47.580
And man, I am so thankful for the guys I worked with.

00:22:47.580 –> 00:22:49.040
They’re phenomenal.

00:22:49.040 –> 00:22:52.780
And I continue to work with on some of the music aspects of this.

00:22:52.780 –> 00:23:10.420
Skulk shows back then were, if you show up to a skulk show, I usually, if you show up early enough for me to be warming up on stage, I’m probably warming up with some Tom Jones or something very unexpected from Skulk.

00:23:10.420 –> 00:23:13.260
Just to keep people like, what is about to happen?

00:23:13.260 –> 00:23:14.400
You know?

00:23:14.400 –> 00:23:20.620
And then we usually had performance artists on stage.

00:23:20.620 –> 00:23:25.980
Like I said, we had the lovers in the background one time.

00:23:25.980 –> 00:23:29.720
Camelman’s running through the audience, handing out popsicles.

00:23:29.720 –> 00:23:32.420
We had Lady Bag Head show up.

00:23:32.840 –> 00:23:37.340
And, you know, do a performance piece in the middle of a song.

00:23:37.340 –> 00:23:42.340
I also am someone who, I grew up very loud, from a loud family.

00:23:42.340 –> 00:23:52.000
And most venues in New York don’t have the best sound system, so I can usually scream louder than a lot of these venues.

00:23:52.000 –> 00:23:59.320
So I loved just dropping the mic, giving in to the audience, and screaming together with people.

00:24:00.040 –> 00:24:09.160
And it was very much, a lot of times I would start shows by saying, I am not Skulk, we are not Skulk, but all of us are Skulk.

00:24:09.160 –> 00:24:13.860
And we’re gonna get through this together.

00:24:13.860 –> 00:24:15.940
And I miss, I miss performing.

00:24:15.940 –> 00:24:24.580
It was, you know, COVID really had stopped it, and people moved away, and things changed, you know, lives changed.

00:24:24.580 –> 00:24:28.560
New York lost a lot of really great venues.

00:24:28.560 –> 00:24:35.400
It feels like New York is either venues that are really far out or really gigantic.

00:24:35.400 –> 00:24:45.900
And so, I don’t know, the scene changed a little, and so I’m not quite sure how to get back to that, if I want to get back to that.

00:24:45.900 –> 00:24:55.880
Now Skulk is, one of the best things I did was I bought a whisper room right before the pandemic happened.

00:24:55.880 –> 00:24:59.480
I have my keyboard right here next to me at my desk.

00:24:59.480 –> 00:25:06.060
I will choose either to work on music or to work on a story.

00:25:06.060 –> 00:25:13.800
I don’t like to write music that is based on the story or vice versa.

00:25:13.800 –> 00:25:22.040
I like to write the music based on whatever it is that I’m feeling at that moment and write the story based on whatever it is I’m feeling at that moment.

00:25:22.040 –> 00:25:27.020
And then I have logs of both and I find where they intersect.

00:25:27.020 –> 00:25:38.740
And then I pull those two together and then I start doing all the bells and whistles on either side of it, so that they do influence each other.

00:25:38.740 –> 00:25:49.380
But the initial emotions were coming from somewhere in me first, before I’m trying to manufacture that emotion or story.

00:25:49.380 –> 00:25:49.960
Okay.

00:25:49.960 –> 00:25:53.020
And by whisper room, do you mean like vocal booth or?

00:25:53.020 –> 00:25:53.600
Yeah, it’s a boat.

00:25:53.600 –> 00:25:53.960
Yeah, yeah.

00:25:54.260 –> 00:25:54.800
It’s yeah.

00:25:54.800 –> 00:26:00.240
It’s a it’s kind of the Ikea of vocal booths, but it’s really good.

00:26:00.240 –> 00:26:02.760
Like it’s you know, it’s one type of nut.

00:26:02.760 –> 00:26:04.440
It fits together perfectly.

00:26:04.440 –> 00:26:10.440
You just get out your screwdriver and screw it together and it’s you know, it pretty much fits like one and a half of me.

00:26:12.680 –> 00:26:19.540
But it’s great for New York living because there’s always sounds outside your window and it’s very silent.

00:26:19.540 –> 00:26:30.560
I’m also, as I said, a very loud screamer and when I’m in there screaming at best, it is really just a very low whisper if you’re outside of the booth, you know?

00:26:32.080 –> 00:26:50.020
So it’s really been kind of a godsend that I accidentally bought right before the pandemic hit and it allowed me to explore writing this podcast or vodcast and recording it all on my own.

00:26:50.020 –> 00:26:55.280
By the way, is the video podcast also available in audio only format or is it?

00:26:55.300 –> 00:27:02.960
Yeah, so Spotify, you can choose to listen to just the audio or you can watch and listen.

00:27:04.620 –> 00:27:13.060
I mean, on YouTube, it’s video, but there is an RSS feed to that.

00:27:13.060 –> 00:27:13.860
Okay.

00:27:13.860 –> 00:27:14.100
Cool.

00:27:14.100 –> 00:27:17.300
Is it going to be a limited series thing or undetermined?

00:27:17.480 –> 00:27:29.960
So this story was 12 episodes and it is a few lives of Skulk that are all related to each other and tell one big story.

00:27:29.960 –> 00:27:48.060
But also before I did it and now after it, it’s a continued series of shorts that are anywhere between three to 10 minutes, and they are a quick life and lesson of Skulk from a random point.

00:27:48.140 –> 00:27:58.860
It could be before this longer story that happened, or after this longer story, just to teach whatever moral lessons Skulk needed to learn at that moment.

00:27:58.860 –> 00:28:00.420
Okay.

00:28:00.420 –> 00:28:04.960
Has this iteration extended into live performance or will it?

00:28:04.960 –> 00:28:06.860
I would love it to.

00:28:09.120 –> 00:28:12.440
As I said, I really do miss live performing.

00:28:12.680 –> 00:28:17.500
There is nothing that beats the fear of getting on stage.

00:28:18.980 –> 00:28:25.640
And the connection that you make with the audience.

00:28:25.800 –> 00:28:28.300
I would love for this to…

00:28:28.300 –> 00:28:32.660
I mean, that would be really cool to turn it into a live performance.

00:28:32.660 –> 00:28:38.920
Maybe more like this thing to turn into a more theatrical thing instead of a music venue thing.

00:28:38.920 –> 00:28:47.120
You know, there would be obviously music involved, but I think it would be best served in a more theatrical venue.

00:28:47.520 –> 00:28:48.200
That makes sense.

00:28:48.200 –> 00:28:54.240
Or, you know, I mean, kind of end up with that Pink Floyd, the Wallace sort of production thing.

00:28:55.120 –> 00:28:55.820
Still music.

00:28:55.820 –> 00:28:57.420
I mean, I’ve always loved that.

00:28:57.420 –> 00:29:11.180
Like, you look at Pink Floyd, you look at like old, like, I love, like, watching, like, old Alice Cooper stuff that was like super performance art, you know, like that’s…

00:29:11.180 –> 00:29:13.340
I don’t even know if you could call it a music video.

00:29:13.340 –> 00:29:18.120
It was just kind of this weird performance stuff that they were doing.

00:29:19.400 –> 00:29:27.660
I’ve always liked the things that kind of blend genres and make people question what exactly it is they’re watching.

00:29:27.660 –> 00:29:28.760
Yeah.

00:29:28.760 –> 00:29:30.980
Yeah, you remind me.

00:29:30.980 –> 00:29:33.320
And I’ve lost a lot of the details.

00:29:33.320 –> 00:29:37.660
And a lot of these are like a haze of weed and beer from my youth.

00:29:37.660 –> 00:29:43.220
But I saw Alice Cooper in Dallas once, and they performed behind a chain link fence.

00:29:46.520 –> 00:29:48.020
I love it, man.

00:29:48.020 –> 00:29:49.920
You don’t even have to know what it means.

00:29:49.920 –> 00:29:53.100
It means something to everyone in the audience.

00:29:53.100 –> 00:29:54.520
And that’s the important thing.

00:29:54.520 –> 00:29:54.880
Yeah.

00:29:54.880 –> 00:29:57.560
I think that’s actually something learned that I learned through improv.

00:29:57.560 –> 00:30:10.200
Sometimes it’s good to just repeat something, even if you’re not quite sure why you’re repeating it, because that repetition lets the audience find something out about themselves.

00:30:11.980 –> 00:30:22.000
You don’t have to always know the reason, but you have to always present something that makes people think about what they’re doing themselves.

00:30:23.960 –> 00:30:26.940
I don’t know if that’s a little too…

00:30:26.940 –> 00:30:36.260
Sometimes I question the things I learned in improv, but it helped open me up as a person.

00:30:37.440 –> 00:30:44.340
Well, I guess it speaks to the fact that we experience music or visual art the way we experience it, you know?

00:30:44.340 –> 00:30:51.640
And so, something may have meaning to Alice Cooper or to you, but it just sort of gets taken in, you know?

00:30:51.640 –> 00:30:56.360
It may get taken in a completely different way, especially if it’s not sort of predefined for us, you know?

00:30:56.360 –> 00:31:00.280
And you’re just surprised, which I was, you know, at that time, in that particular instance.

00:31:00.320 –> 00:31:00.920
Yeah.

00:31:00.920 –> 00:31:06.780
So, yeah, my first concert was, what’s their name?

00:31:06.780 –> 00:31:07.760
Rammstein.

00:31:07.760 –> 00:31:10.100
And it was early 90s.

00:31:10.100 –> 00:31:17.720
And my parents’ friend had taken me to go see that, and he did not know what he was in store for.

00:31:17.720 –> 00:31:20.260
I did not know what I was in store for.

00:31:21.240 –> 00:31:25.340
And I just, all of it was just so intense to me.

00:31:25.380 –> 00:31:36.260
But I love, I love, like, I love that, like, it made me feel like, oh, man, you could really just go for it if you want, you know?

00:31:36.260 –> 00:31:36.880
Sure.

00:31:36.880 –> 00:31:37.480
Yeah.

00:31:37.480 –> 00:31:40.400
Be imaginative for sure.

00:31:40.400 –> 00:31:46.920
So, hey, I want, going back to something you said earlier about, or I was asking you about the whole PR thing.

00:31:47.080 –> 00:31:52.660
And you mentioned resistance to the generative AI aspect of the podcast.

00:31:53.840 –> 00:31:59.080
Can you share any specifics as to what the resistance sounds like?

00:31:59.080 –> 00:31:59.520
So a lot.

00:31:59.520 –> 00:32:08.780
So we were really reaching out to get some write ups from media outlets who normally talk about vodcasts and podcasts.

00:32:08.780 –> 00:32:15.840
And we were really pushing, you know, I really don’t think there’s many vodcasts specifically that are fictional.

00:32:15.980 –> 00:32:19.900
Most of them are talking heads, you know, and it’s people who are talking.

00:32:19.900 –> 00:32:22.120
And, you know, I’m not knocking that.

00:32:22.120 –> 00:32:25.400
I’m just saying that’s what most of them are.

00:32:25.400 –> 00:32:35.580
And we were really trying to show like, hey, look, there’s, there’s a there might be a new way to look at vodcasts, you know, almost as a way to.

00:32:35.580 –> 00:32:40.340
Produce your own show in a in a unique way.

00:32:40.340 –> 00:32:50.220
And we got a lot of responses of just flat out, people said, thanks for your thanks for your thanks for reaching out to us.

00:32:51.320 –> 00:32:56.620
And we just don’t write about generative AI right now.

00:32:56.620 –> 00:32:59.700
And that’s we got it from a lot of people.

00:32:59.700 –> 00:33:06.780
And we, you know, we tried downplaying it a little bit and speaking more towards because it’s the whole project isn’t generative AI.

00:33:06.780 –> 00:33:10.160
It’s just a tool used in the entire project.

00:33:10.700 –> 00:33:21.700
We tried also trying to explain to him that part of the reason of this project was that I wanted to explore it as something that is their moral value to it.

00:33:21.700 –> 00:33:24.840
Is there is their artistic value to it?

00:33:24.840 –> 00:33:30.460
Is it as taking from others as people make it out to be?

00:33:30.680 –> 00:33:35.120
I find it a little disappointing how media doesn’t want to talk about.

00:33:35.120 –> 00:33:46.680
I understand being concerned about it, but not wanting to talk about something that you find concerning, that is very prevalent in your arts that you are commenting about.

00:33:46.680 –> 00:33:49.480
I think it’s a little naive too.

00:33:49.580 –> 00:34:02.880
I think if you’re not willing to talk about something that you think is going wrong, you’re just allowing the people who are doing it wrong to continue to do it wrong and teach others how to do it wrong.

00:34:02.880 –> 00:34:05.040
So why wouldn’t you want to talk about it?

00:34:06.000 –> 00:34:10.880
Ask yourself too, is there something valuable that could come out of this?

00:34:11.180 –> 00:34:12.920
It’s hard to fight against it.

00:34:12.920 –> 00:34:13.680
Yeah.

00:34:13.680 –> 00:34:21.020
I’m just thinking about all the things that go through people’s heads.

00:34:21.020 –> 00:34:36.320
Some of these publications, and maybe they probably sound clearly misunderstand what you’re doing, but I can see they still have reasons, good or bad, why they shy away from it.

00:34:36.700 –> 00:34:43.780
So is it fair to say, and I’m not sure that it is, but let me rephrase it.

00:34:43.780 –> 00:34:59.500
Was the this iteration of Skulk the Hulking born of generative AI, or had these visions been going through your head for a long time and generative AI enabled you to bring them to fruition?

00:34:59.500 –> 00:34:59.740
Yeah.

00:34:59.740 –> 00:35:01.180
I mean, it’s definitely the latter.

00:35:02.140 –> 00:35:16.460
Like, I had been having these, you know, creating these characters for a while, live with people, you know, performing and being these characters.

00:35:16.460 –> 00:35:47.280
And once I saw what generative AI could do, I thought, oh, maybe this is a chance to really bring them to life and help people understand, with a goal of, if someone, you know, if it’s to show what it could be, and then once people see what it could be, and I have more, you know, funds to be able to create something that isn’t necessarily AI driven, I can do that, you know.

00:35:47.280 –> 00:36:12.300
But also too, using the AI, it kind of taught, that was the, that was the initial goal, but now having used the AI, I sometimes question if I want to move away from it, because there’s so many times in the words and the phrases that I use to create some of these images, it pulls something that I didn’t even realize I had meaning in there.

00:36:12.560 –> 00:36:21.640
And it kind of, I also have always loved the ugliness of the AI, like when something doesn’t go as planned.

00:36:22.320 –> 00:36:31.760
I almost prefer it when it does that, and finding how to use that to help tell my story.

00:36:31.760 –> 00:36:35.540
You know, it’s kind of a collaborator in a way.

00:36:35.540 –> 00:36:36.800
Accidental.

00:36:36.800 –> 00:36:38.760
Yeah, yeah.

00:36:38.760 –> 00:36:40.520
Wow, that’s interesting.

00:36:40.520 –> 00:36:46.740
And was any of this born out of places outside of improv?

00:36:46.740 –> 00:36:54.920
Like what was feeding your imagination for the visual aspects and even the story aspects before improv?

00:36:54.920 –> 00:36:59.020
It’s, yeah, it’s a good question.

00:36:59.020 –> 00:37:04.900
I mean, I’ve always been a political person, even when I was a kid.

00:37:04.900 –> 00:37:10.480
You know, I went to college for physics and philosophy.

00:37:10.480 –> 00:37:18.740
And though I was more into physics at the time, the philosophy had kind of grabbed me more and made me think about things.

00:37:19.620 –> 00:37:37.440
And I think definitely some early images of characters pulling the strings come from philosophers, Nietzsche and David Hume, who I loved.

00:37:38.640 –> 00:37:50.560
And they kind of taught me how the world works, even though I think both of them are very wrong about a lot of things, but I like the way that they painted the world with their words.

00:37:50.560 –> 00:37:54.540
And so that kind of started getting me thinking about that.

00:37:54.540 –> 00:38:01.600
I mean, as I met Lady Baghead definitely comes from Monet, or Monet’s, Magritte’s, The Lovers.

00:38:01.640 –> 00:38:13.120
But Hammerhand’s, Hammerhand, I kind of like to look at the images as, they have these grandiose ideas behind them.

00:38:13.120 –> 00:38:17.580
But I like to put the images in almost a childlike way.

00:38:17.580 –> 00:38:23.400
You know, when I was thinking, what could represent enforcement of law?

00:38:23.400 –> 00:38:29.440
You know, everyone’s got the, you know, the police outfit, the whatever.

00:38:29.440 –> 00:38:36.520
But I was like, how can I make that almost a child cartoon character and just give him hammers for hands?

00:38:36.520 –> 00:38:40.360
And that’s the, you know, his mouth is sewn shut and he has hammers for hands.

00:38:40.360 –> 00:38:45.940
So what’s the only way he can enforce this law is through using those hammers.

00:38:45.940 –> 00:39:03.280
And Camel Man is definitely a bit of a reference to the old school Joe Camel, you know, and how we use characters to entice people to be, he represents addiction and a want to only entertain yourself.

00:39:04.620 –> 00:39:14.380
And so it kind of, you know, merged into there and just, you know, a gangly, heroined out looking creature, you know.

00:39:15.460 –> 00:39:28.620
So yeah, you know, I like trying to make bigger ideas into these more childlike characters, because that I feel that kind of appeals to the masses in some ways.

00:39:28.620 –> 00:39:40.820
If I were to try and get you to dig back farther in your life, are there, is there like any childhood animation or television that informs your imagination for these kind of things as well?

00:39:40.860 –> 00:39:42.120
It’s interesting.

00:39:42.120 –> 00:40:04.780
I think growing up, I loved, I remember one of the first things cartoon wise that maybe grabbed me was on MTV, there was cartoon sushi, also liquid television it was before, like liquid television existed right before cartoon sushi.

00:40:04.780 –> 00:40:17.560
And I think I loved how it had each thing was a short, each thing was in such a different form and visualization.

00:40:17.560 –> 00:40:28.040
But they all kind of aimed at the weird and and not so talked about things in life in some ways.

00:40:28.040 –> 00:40:36.180
And I remember that having an impact, you know, like I really love that MTV had a huge impact.

00:40:36.180 –> 00:40:38.020
I mean, I mean, Aeon Flux was on there.

00:40:38.020 –> 00:40:42.740
That was such a crazy and weird visualization.

00:40:45.460 –> 00:40:56.100
But I think also that it’s possible that part of what I like about this project is that I’m constantly changing the style.

00:40:56.100 –> 00:41:00.420
Sometimes it’s a cartoon style, and then the next scene is a more realistic style.

00:41:00.500 –> 00:41:06.000
And then the next scene is almost a painting, you know?

00:41:06.000 –> 00:41:17.080
It’s possible that came from that cartoon sushi liquid television style, where it was jumping genres so often, but still kind of telling similar stories.

00:41:17.080 –> 00:41:20.300
So there was a weird through line.

00:41:20.300 –> 00:41:20.860
That’s interesting.

00:41:20.860 –> 00:41:25.940
You reminded me of kind of a modern day version of this.

00:41:28.480 –> 00:41:30.680
I may get the name wrong because I always do.

00:41:30.680 –> 00:41:35.340
But I don’t recall how many seasons they initially had, but there was a long gap.

00:41:35.340 –> 00:41:37.020
I thought it was completely done.

00:41:37.020 –> 00:41:38.820
But I believe it’s called Love, Death and Robots.

00:41:38.820 –> 00:41:39.340
Have you seen this?

00:41:39.340 –> 00:41:39.700
Yes.

00:41:39.700 –> 00:41:39.940
Yeah.

00:41:39.940 –> 00:41:40.140
Yeah.

00:41:40.140 –> 00:41:40.540
Yeah.

00:41:40.540 –> 00:41:40.820
Yeah.

00:41:40.820 –> 00:41:45.900
I mean, we’re in the middle of watching the latest season right now.

00:41:45.900 –> 00:41:48.540
Like, that’s a wonderful show.

00:41:48.540 –> 00:41:59.200
And I think that does, I think Love, Death and Robots does a great job of kind of calling back to those cartoon sushi liquid television days, where it’s the whole goal of it.

00:41:59.200 –> 00:42:01.200
I think that’s also what I loved about it.

00:42:01.200 –> 00:42:14.300
Both Love, Death and Robots and those old shows, their goal was to give people who weren’t so popular or famous, an outlet to show the art that they’re doing.

00:42:14.300 –> 00:42:15.920
So I really appreciate all of them.

00:42:15.920 –> 00:42:22.440
And yeah, I think associating Love, Death and Robots is very on point.

00:42:22.440 –> 00:42:43.300
Yeah, and I’m sure there were probably a couple of other programs, older ones, kind of going back more around the MTV time that you’re talking about that are lurking in the back of my memory too, but that one jumped out at me because it has kind of this similar thread, but visually and topically, it really kind of moves around in a surprisingly way.

00:42:43.300 –> 00:42:44.900
A pleasantly surprising way.

00:42:45.540 –> 00:42:48.320
And dystopian dark way, which is appealing.

00:42:48.320 –> 00:42:49.880
Of course, always.

00:42:51.160 –> 00:43:02.400
So I mentioned some listeners who find the episode that we’ll create from this conversation are going to be curious about what AI tools you’re using and how you learned to harness their quirks.

00:43:03.980 –> 00:43:19.840
So I started, so the initial project started with Mid Journey, which started, I started on, when it was only on Discord, there wasn’t even a way to do it on the web.

00:43:19.840 –> 00:43:25.480
And eventually it got moved over where you can do it just from a website.

00:43:27.120 –> 00:43:33.820
Mid Journey is very much about the words that you use.

00:43:33.820 –> 00:43:36.520
Mid Journey I use to create the images.

00:43:38.020 –> 00:43:51.200
And Mid Journey bases a lot of what’s important as what’s at the front of what you’re typing is more important than what’s at the back of what you’re typing.

00:43:51.200 –> 00:44:05.880
And so a lot of times it’s not the best idea to write it as a sentence, but start by describing what the most important thing is and then slowly describe the next least important thing.

00:44:06.400 –> 00:44:13.100
Mid Journey has changed a lot in the few years that I’ve been working with it.

00:44:13.100 –> 00:44:20.980
Now there’s a tool where you can highlight a segment of the image you create and ask it to change it in a certain way.

00:44:20.980 –> 00:44:22.320
That’s cool.

00:44:22.320 –> 00:44:25.760
So now there’s actual editing that is involved.

00:44:25.760 –> 00:44:27.260
And I really like that.

00:44:27.300 –> 00:44:30.760
That’s really started to let you feel a little more control.

00:44:30.760 –> 00:44:40.720
Because there was a lot of time something would, an image would pop up and you’d be like, oh man, that’s perfect except one little thing doesn’t fit the story.

00:44:40.720 –> 00:44:43.960
Now you’re able to change that and move with it.

00:44:43.960 –> 00:44:45.320
That’s cool.

00:44:45.640 –> 00:45:00.400
And now recently with my recent stories that are coming out, I’ve started playing with Sora, which is ChatGPT’s video generator.

00:45:00.400 –> 00:45:04.720
And I love using Mid Journey and Sora together.

00:45:04.720 –> 00:45:21.760
Mid Journey is so good at creating these very visceral pictures that you really can get some good emotions out of the characters on the screen, which allows Sora to pick up that emotion from the images.

00:45:21.760 –> 00:45:27.940
And then you kind of describe what you want it to do in Sora, and then it’ll animate it.

00:45:27.940 –> 00:45:35.880
I’ve noticed Sora is a lot more careful about what it’s willing to give you.

00:45:35.880 –> 00:45:43.940
A lot of images that I was able to get out of Mid Journey in Sora, it says, this might violate our…

00:45:46.360 –> 00:45:48.100
What’s the word I’m looking for?

00:45:48.100 –> 00:45:48.880
This might violate…

00:45:50.000 –> 00:45:50.760
Code of something.

00:45:50.760 –> 00:45:52.900
Yeah, exactly.

00:45:52.900 –> 00:45:55.720
Sora is a lot more careful about it.

00:45:55.720 –> 00:46:04.840
But something very fun about that is that, I actually, my favorite part of art is overcoming obstacles.

00:46:04.840 –> 00:46:08.740
So it’s very careful about showing dead bodies.

00:46:08.740 –> 00:46:13.320
Skulk accidentally kills a lot of people and things in his story.

00:46:13.320 –> 00:46:16.880
He’s very sorry about it, but he’s an ogre.

00:46:18.360 –> 00:46:22.740
So you have to find clever ways to represent that, you know?

00:46:23.140 –> 00:46:25.820
You can’t show something.

00:46:25.820 –> 00:46:35.100
But sometimes a mannequin floating in a bog with its body parts separated, it’s the idea across, you know?

00:46:35.100 –> 00:46:40.580
I’ve always felt art comes from the obstacles you have to overcome.

00:46:40.580 –> 00:46:47.180
And I actually found, when I went from writing, I used to write a lot of my music on…

00:46:47.180 –> 00:46:49.120
Sorry, I’m a little bouncing all over the place.

00:46:51.080 –> 00:47:02.540
I used to find writing my music, I used to write on a sequencer, an old sequencer from the 70s that I bought in the 2000s, you know?

00:47:02.540 –> 00:47:12.380
But I loved it because there were tons of sounds and it really like you had to make what it had work, you know?

00:47:12.380 –> 00:47:20.000
And then I started writing on Logic Pro, and my god, there are so many sounds on Logic Pro that it felt there were no obstacles.

00:47:20.000 –> 00:47:21.280
So let me stop you for a second.

00:47:21.300 –> 00:47:22.120
Yeah, yeah.

00:47:22.120 –> 00:47:24.300
Because I’m a Logic user.

00:47:24.300 –> 00:47:28.960
Is that out of the box or a lot of plugins?

00:47:28.960 –> 00:47:34.680
Even just out of the box, I would say, actually it’s shocking how many sounds it has.

00:47:34.680 –> 00:47:38.380
And then you can add plugins, which is even more, you know?

00:47:39.460 –> 00:47:50.920
So it kind of, when I first started using Logic, it kind of, I had to take a moment and be like, okay, how do I, how do I even begin to think about music?

00:47:50.920 –> 00:47:56.120
Because I’m so used to having these obstacles that now I don’t.

00:47:56.120 –> 00:48:03.660
And so now I have to kind of menu, in music, I have to kind of manufacture obstacles to help me write.

00:48:03.660 –> 00:48:14.480
Sometimes I’ll, I’ll hear a sound and I’ll be like, I’ll just go through the sounds just down and just hit one note and I’ll be like, I like this sound, I have to write something with it.

00:48:14.480 –> 00:48:17.400
And so you just kind of lock yourself in and force it.

00:48:17.400 –> 00:48:26.540
Well, sometimes you don’t write something, but having that obstacle of forcing helped me, helped me learn to write with logic.

00:48:26.540 –> 00:48:28.320
That’s interesting.

00:48:28.320 –> 00:48:29.700
Yeah, I don’t know.

00:48:29.700 –> 00:48:33.520
Do you find that in your art that?

00:48:33.580 –> 00:48:37.020
Well, I actually have an experience that you reminded me of.

00:48:37.020 –> 00:48:44.920
So I’ve only published a couple of original compositions, and I have pieces of things that I haven’t finished.

00:48:44.920 –> 00:48:53.920
But my work with logic has been recording acoustic drum sets for production, and then also vocal parts.

00:48:54.060 –> 00:48:55.860
And I use it for editing the podcast.

00:48:55.860 –> 00:48:58.180
So I occasionally put some things in there.

00:48:58.180 –> 00:49:07.000
Oh, and I did do a short series of videos where I would play to loops that I got from from logic.

00:49:07.000 –> 00:49:11.580
And yeah, I mean, if I were just to talk about the loops library, it’s massive.

00:49:11.580 –> 00:49:15.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s just massive, you know.

00:49:15.580 –> 00:49:19.160
It’s shocking how much we have at our fingertips right now.

00:49:19.160 –> 00:49:24.080
And it actually is, I feel, a little stifling in certain ways.

00:49:25.380 –> 00:49:26.180
So I do.

00:49:26.820 –> 00:49:29.800
And I do use logic to edit all of the same.

00:49:30.320 –> 00:49:34.840
The podcast stories, that’s where I edit in logic.

00:49:34.840 –> 00:49:39.000
And then when I put it together for visuals, I’m using, I actually just use iMovie.

00:49:39.000 –> 00:49:42.240
I find iMovie has everything.

00:49:42.240 –> 00:49:43.640
Talk about obstacles, though.

00:49:43.780 –> 00:49:45.300
I’ve learning.

00:49:45.300 –> 00:49:48.540
I keep learning new workarounds for things.

00:49:48.600 –> 00:49:57.860
Yeah, I mean, I know, I know that Final Cut Pro, as amazing as it probably is, I’m like, I will just be overwhelmed with all the stuff it does.

00:49:57.860 –> 00:50:00.480
I’m not sure I’m prepared.

00:50:00.480 –> 00:50:01.540
A hundred percent.

00:50:02.580 –> 00:50:26.960
I use GIMP when I want to edit, you know, like, I like, I do kind of like those obstacles that, because when there is this obstacle and you’re trying to figure out how to even just get around it, a lot of times you figure out ways to break it in fun and interesting ways, which ends up becoming your flavor, you know?

00:50:27.220 –> 00:50:36.040
That’s kind of where you get the spice inside of where your art comes from, at least for me.

00:50:36.040 –> 00:50:36.980
Sure.

00:50:36.980 –> 00:50:43.700
You know, and I started down a thought and I didn’t quite finish it, but I kind of want to share it.

00:50:43.760 –> 00:50:48.720
It helps me plug a song, but you know, you talked about finding something.

00:50:48.720 –> 00:50:49.480
You love the sound.

00:50:49.480 –> 00:50:51.220
You want to write something around it.

00:50:51.220 –> 00:50:54.520
That happened to me with the second song I published.

00:50:57.000 –> 00:51:01.540
I found this website called Compose with a K and a Z.

00:51:01.540 –> 00:51:05.140
And it’s an online collaboration platform for musicians.

00:51:05.140 –> 00:51:13.020
So people put in stems of something they’re working on and invite drummers or guitarists or vocalists or whatever they need.

00:51:13.100 –> 00:51:21.100
And I found this guy who was writing so much stuff, but I found this keyboard piece he’d done, fully complete.

00:51:21.100 –> 00:51:21.440
Yeah.

00:51:21.440 –> 00:51:25.520
But I was like, man, that sounds like a cool kind of prog rock thing.

00:51:25.520 –> 00:51:28.140
I’m going to see if I put some drums to it and send it to him.

00:51:28.140 –> 00:51:29.500
You know, he liked it.

00:51:29.500 –> 00:51:35.800
But then I said, hey, can I use that to write a song around and we can collaborate on it.

00:51:35.800 –> 00:51:37.600
We’ll be the writers of the song.

00:51:37.600 –> 00:51:38.680
And he was like, sure.

00:51:38.680 –> 00:51:42.060
So to your point, I found this sound that I just loved.

00:51:42.360 –> 00:51:46.740
And basically, it was amenable to it.

00:51:46.740 –> 00:51:52.400
I had him shorten it, rearrange a couple of pieces, and we ended up with a song that wasn’t crazy long.

00:51:52.400 –> 00:51:57.840
And it was my ode to Prague Rock and groups like Zeppelin and Genesis.

00:51:57.840 –> 00:51:59.000
Nice, nice.

00:51:59.480 –> 00:52:07.920
But I could see that if you develop a skill for exploring like a sound library and saying, oh yeah, I like that one.

00:52:08.200 –> 00:52:09.880
I’m going to tuck that one away because I want to use that.

00:52:10.700 –> 00:52:13.520
And I guess that’s what I did with those drum videos I mentioned.

00:52:13.520 –> 00:52:15.280
I’d find a loop and go, that’s a good one.

00:52:15.280 –> 00:52:17.180
Let’s see what I can do with that.

00:52:17.180 –> 00:52:17.660
Yeah.

00:52:17.660 –> 00:52:21.440
And I like, there’s something nice about like having those.

00:52:21.440 –> 00:52:30.080
Like I just have a folder of just sounds that I turned into little, you know, maybe it’s only just four bars, eight bars.

00:52:30.080 –> 00:52:31.760
You know, maybe it’s half a song.

00:52:31.760 –> 00:52:37.140
But like, as far as I can take the idea that that sound inspired me.

00:52:37.260 –> 00:52:45.300
And I just got this nice folder and every so often I’ll just go through it and relisten this stuff because it might spark something, you know.

00:52:45.300 –> 00:52:54.660
And now especially when I’ve written a story and I know what I want to say and I’ll record the vocals so I kind of have the feel of what that story is.

00:52:54.660 –> 00:52:59.400
And then you just go through that library and like, does this song match its energy?

00:52:59.400 –> 00:53:01.820
You know, and then I find that matched energy.

00:53:01.820 –> 00:53:15.280
And when you throw them together, that’s when you actually kind of finish both sides, you know, like, each side is not quite there, but then they kind of influence each other and you see where the overlap is and where they need to support each other.

00:53:15.280 –> 00:53:16.800
Yeah, that’s cool.

00:53:16.800 –> 00:53:23.060
I’m very much someone who I prefer to let the music drive.

00:53:23.060 –> 00:53:33.120
I will elongate parts of episodes or shrink parts of episodes to fit where the music has to change, because I think that’s more important.

00:53:33.760 –> 00:53:41.140
I think the music is what gets us to feel, whereas the story is what gives it the flavor.

00:53:41.140 –> 00:53:42.740
That’s interesting and I think it’s kind of cool.

00:53:42.760 –> 00:53:44.900
I guess the musician in you.

00:53:45.020 –> 00:53:45.900
I think so.

00:53:46.180 –> 00:53:51.220
I’ve always, since I was a kid, I loved music and that’s always, I feel, what I’ve led with.

00:53:51.220 –> 00:53:53.080
Me too, me too.

00:53:53.440 –> 00:53:59.460
You mentioned Discord in the early days of mid-journey and Discord.

00:53:59.460 –> 00:54:01.200
Two questions popped in my head.

00:54:01.200 –> 00:54:08.880
It’s like, do you lean on user communities for learning things or is everybody showing kind of like everything else?

00:54:08.880 –> 00:54:15.720
There’s some YouTube, some great eight-year-old YouTube, produced YouTube video showing you how to do some of the things you’re trying to figure out.

00:54:17.900 –> 00:54:22.260
As someone who knows of Discord, I was just on it the other day, but I never use it.

00:54:22.340 –> 00:54:24.040
It sort of reminds me of Reddit.

00:54:24.040 –> 00:54:28.340
I’ve never really gotten in there, and there are things about like Reddit that piss me off, that don’t make any sense to me.

00:54:28.340 –> 00:54:28.820
Yeah.

00:54:29.200 –> 00:54:39.700
But is that a tool that is used for as a community tool for the tools, the AI-generated tools that you’re using or how do you learn?

00:54:39.700 –> 00:54:47.380
So that’s actually interesting because I feel Mid-Journey changed when it came off of Discord.

00:54:47.380 –> 00:54:57.260
Because the way Mid-Journey used to work was they have I think it was four rooms, maybe six rooms, where you could generate images.

00:54:57.260 –> 00:55:00.560
But everyone is in there generating images.

00:55:00.560 –> 00:55:05.520
So you’re not just seeing your images you’re generating, you’re seeing everyone’s images.

00:55:05.520 –> 00:55:13.540
And that has to affect how you are creating, you know, you’re seeing everything.

00:55:15.040 –> 00:55:20.980
It is a lot of people just putting in a picture of themselves and making them look like a ninja or something, you know.

00:55:21.260 –> 00:55:25.960
But every so often you’d see something, you’re like, that’s kind of cool.

00:55:25.960 –> 00:55:31.580
And you could see what prompt they used to get that, you know.

00:55:31.580 –> 00:55:37.380
So I think there was some very interesting learning opportunities.

00:55:37.380 –> 00:55:46.260
Now that it’s web based, I actually don’t even know if you can still go on Discord to use those rooms.

00:55:46.260 –> 00:55:47.360
I should look.

00:55:47.780 –> 00:55:51.520
That’s, I don’t know why I just chose to start.

00:55:51.520 –> 00:55:52.460
It was partially.

00:55:52.460 –> 00:55:54.660
There’s only so much time.

00:55:54.660 –> 00:55:55.920
I mean, that’s the thing.

00:55:56.020 –> 00:56:00.740
It was also distracting and it was hard to stay focused.

00:56:00.740 –> 00:56:07.780
Whereas when it’s just your stuff you’re working on, it’s a little bit easier to get it done.

00:56:07.780 –> 00:56:13.960
But also too, I do miss that community aspect where I was seeing what people were creating.

00:56:14.420 –> 00:56:21.240
When it came to learning the quirks of it, Reddit was a little more helpful.

00:56:21.240 –> 00:56:24.140
You know, the Discord did have…

00:56:24.140 –> 00:56:36.800
The Discord, I did use the Discord rooms that were like, people could talk about what they used, what they noticed was working for them, what was, what wasn’t working for them.

00:56:36.800 –> 00:56:39.540
But still Reddit, I think, is just a little cleaner.

00:56:39.540 –> 00:56:44.780
You were able to ask a question and kind of get there through that.

00:56:47.460 –> 00:56:48.440
I think part of…

00:56:48.440 –> 00:56:53.160
But that also makes me think a little about how I feel…

00:56:54.180 –> 00:56:59.920
There’s part of the modern world that is moving away from social media, you know?

00:56:59.920 –> 00:57:02.420
Social media isn’t quite social media anymore.

00:57:02.420 –> 00:57:06.060
The social part is disappearing, you know?

00:57:06.060 –> 00:57:16.220
People like, I look at Instagram, I look at TikTok, and it’s you putting out something to show the world, but not having a conversation with the world.

00:57:16.220 –> 00:57:18.980
Whereas early Facebook, there were conversations.

00:57:18.980 –> 00:57:29.740
Even now, I try to talk about AI on Facebook, because it’s the only place you could post something with more than 140 characters, you know?

00:57:30.960 –> 00:57:40.680
But I miss that social aspect, and I think early on, part of what made Mid Journey successful was it had that social aspect.

00:57:40.680 –> 00:57:46.260
People were seeing each other’s work, commenting on it, talking about it.

00:57:46.400 –> 00:57:53.820
I don’t know if it’s had an effect because I feel I’m not part of that social part of Discord anymore.

00:57:53.820 –> 00:58:06.280
Really, Discord now I use as I have my own channel for people who follow the podcast or who watch the Twitch shows that I’ve done.

00:58:06.280 –> 00:58:10.460
But that’s mostly what I’m using Discord for these days.

00:58:10.460 –> 00:58:14.480
And Discord is able to do a lot that I have not explored.

00:58:14.720 –> 00:58:18.320
There’s so much to explore these days, it’s hard to explore at all.

00:58:18.320 –> 00:58:26.600
So it is still relevant then and also, do you like what it does for, or at least the potential of what it does for your podcast community?

00:58:28.100 –> 00:58:29.040
Yes.

00:58:29.380 –> 00:58:31.060
I do think Discord is useful.

00:58:31.160 –> 00:58:40.640
And I think it is a more social, it’s probably the most social media place that exists right now.

00:58:40.640 –> 00:58:42.480
That’s so fascinating.

00:58:42.700 –> 00:58:44.680
Yeah.

00:58:44.680 –> 00:58:54.320
Again, it is a little more closed than other social medias because you have to be invited or asked to be invited to a channel.

00:58:55.780 –> 00:58:58.460
But I do get a lot more interaction there.

00:58:58.580 –> 00:59:04.440
I’m able to talk to people, as I’ve said, people who have listened to the show or whatever.

00:59:04.440 –> 00:59:12.280
And I’m able to create many channels inside of my Discord where we can focus the conversations on different things.

00:59:12.280 –> 00:59:17.920
I have one channel that’s music videos and new music that’s inspiring you.

00:59:17.920 –> 00:59:23.000
I have one channel that’s just talking about gaming because some people are big gamers in the community.

00:59:23.820 –> 00:59:35.060
So I’m able to point people to where they might want to talk about stuff that’s Skulk adjacent or Skulk in those worlds.

00:59:36.360 –> 00:59:37.820
But I do like Discord.

00:59:37.940 –> 00:59:42.820
I think it is doing the work of social media that is missing.

00:59:42.820 –> 00:59:45.380
I do think we need more of it though.

00:59:45.380 –> 00:59:46.020
Okay.

00:59:46.020 –> 00:59:47.320
Good to know.

00:59:47.320 –> 00:59:50.560
That was a self-serving set of questions in case you couldn’t tell.

00:59:50.640 –> 00:59:51.200
Oh, no.

00:59:51.200 –> 00:59:52.960
It’s good.

00:59:52.960 –> 00:59:54.320
So it sounds like you’re a gamer.

00:59:54.320 –> 01:00:01.920
I was curious or wanted to at least tell you that, I think, I believe it’s the last episode I had.

01:00:02.140 –> 01:00:03.420
I listened to it, yeah.

01:00:03.420 –> 01:00:03.780
Okay.

01:00:03.780 –> 01:00:04.860
What do you think?

01:00:04.860 –> 01:00:07.500
I’m curious about whether listeners will like it.

01:00:07.700 –> 01:00:09.280
I thought it was very informative.

01:00:09.280 –> 01:00:15.400
It was very interesting, very cool to hear someone moving from music to doing music gaming.

01:00:15.400 –> 01:00:24.260
It’s actually something people have pushed me towards because my music can be a little 16-bit at times.

01:00:24.260 –> 01:00:31.540
And even though gaming music is no longer 16-bit, you know, like I kind of miss those days.

01:00:31.540 –> 01:00:43.500
I find myself sometimes just doing a menial project and I start humming some song from Zelda or some song from Metroid or something, you know.

01:00:44.080 –> 01:00:49.000
Those, those, those musics had such an effect on me as a kid.

01:00:49.000 –> 01:00:57.480
And I think it was this like, it used the most basics of sounds, but created these feelings and worlds, you know.

01:00:57.480 –> 01:00:59.440
But it was very interesting.

01:00:59.440 –> 01:01:13.720
I thought it was very cool to hear how, how he moved into writing game music and kind of what the feel is of small, small gaming companies versus larger gaming companies.

01:01:13.720 –> 01:01:27.280
That was, that’s something that I think in the gaming community, like how he talked about how the gaming community does get a little frustrated with the larger companies because they put out unfinished stuff so often.

01:01:27.280 –> 01:01:31.500
Yeah, no, but I thought that was, I really enjoyed listening to that.

01:01:31.500 –> 01:01:33.020
Oh, good.

01:01:33.020 –> 01:01:34.800
Yeah, he’s a cool guy.

01:01:34.800 –> 01:01:39.200
He’d been on the podcast before, and it was before he was in that industry.

01:01:39.200 –> 01:01:41.560
And, you know, his story actually is parallel to yours too.

01:01:41.660 –> 01:01:45.460
I mean, it was born of the pandemic that changed, that shift.

01:01:45.460 –> 01:01:48.280
And it was a changing event.

01:01:49.340 –> 01:01:58.680
I think a lot of people’s moment of change might have been that late 2019, early 2020.

01:01:58.680 –> 01:01:59.620
Yeah, I think so.

01:01:59.620 –> 01:02:04.320
And I think some are still trying to figure out what the hell they should be doing now.

01:02:04.320 –> 01:02:11.120
They got hit by the wake, but, you know, didn’t necessarily come out of it with with an idea.

01:02:11.860 –> 01:02:16.440
And not that everyone’s idea is going to pan out.

01:02:16.440 –> 01:02:21.160
But, you know, you got to try it long enough to see and hopefully have fun doing it regardless.

01:02:21.160 –> 01:02:21.640
Yeah.

01:02:22.700 –> 01:02:31.120
So for independent artists who are like intimidated by AI, and I have really mixed feelings about it and I’m a user of it.

01:02:31.120 –> 01:02:37.440
Obviously, I don’t know if that’s obvious or not, but or people, independent artists, who see it as a threat.

01:02:37.440 –> 01:02:38.020
And I get that.

01:02:38.020 –> 01:02:38.920
And I’m sure you do, too.

01:02:38.920 –> 01:02:41.760
But what would you tell them?

01:02:41.760 –> 01:02:48.260
I would say there’s always been changing of tools that we use.

01:02:48.260 –> 01:02:55.840
And unfortunately, that means we constantly have to change our.

01:02:55.840 –> 01:02:58.220
Our skill sets, you know, yeah.

01:03:00.420 –> 01:03:07.620
I think the idea of, I think one of the big fears is that it’s stealing other people’s art, you know.

01:03:07.620 –> 01:03:12.340
And I certainly don’t think that we should be stealing other people’s art.

01:03:12.340 –> 01:03:18.960
But I think our definition of what stealing art is, is a little skewed right now.

01:03:18.960 –> 01:03:22.160
Yes, we shouldn’t exact copy other artists.

01:03:22.160 –> 01:03:29.060
But all of our art comes from other art that we’ve experienced, you know.

01:03:29.060 –> 01:03:38.120
It’s just AI is faster about it, which is scary and frustrating, you know, as a human who can’t move that fast.

01:03:38.120 –> 01:03:42.920
But I don’t think it makes it not invalid, you know.

01:03:42.920 –> 01:03:49.780
Art comes from the meaning you put behind the brush strokes, not necessarily the brush strokes itself.

01:03:49.780 –> 01:03:54.360
And AI is just a brush stroke, in my opinion, you know.

01:03:54.780 –> 01:04:10.020
I love, there was recently this like 10-minute video of a 10-minute video that was like a movie trailer, and people were like, AI is gonna take over making movies.

01:04:10.020 –> 01:04:16.160
There was not a single thing that seemed like a story in that entire 10 minutes.

01:04:16.160 –> 01:04:20.120
It was just colors flashing across the screen, you know.

01:04:20.340 –> 01:04:23.860
To have meaning, I think, is human, you know.

01:04:24.040 –> 01:04:29.100
Like, I don’t think AI is ever going to be able to recreate meaning.

01:04:29.100 –> 01:04:36.860
Now, if your art is just recreating something that’s already been done, well, then, I don’t know, you know.

01:04:36.860 –> 01:04:41.800
Maybe question why that’s your art a little bit, you know.

01:04:41.800 –> 01:04:51.120
I’m not saying that’s not even valid, but there will always be a place for that, and there will always be a place for new and innovative technologies, you know.

01:04:51.740 –> 01:05:09.060
The oppression and the exploitation that people are worried about has more to do with people with way too much money and way too much time who are trying to exploit and oppress people, and they will find another tool even if you’re able to kill AI art.

01:05:09.060 –> 01:05:13.420
So, focus that energy against stopping those people, you know.

01:05:14.160 –> 01:05:15.100
That’s my opinion.

01:05:15.100 –> 01:05:16.040
I don’t know.

01:05:16.040 –> 01:05:17.540
And I’m open to hearing other.

01:05:17.640 –> 01:05:30.660
I do think AI does bring up good questions about ecology, and definitely data centers are pulling more and more energy, which is something we need to think about.

01:05:32.100 –> 01:06:01.680
At the same time, there are, I read an article by a professor, I believe from Princeton, who he was talking about how usually with any technology, there is a huge bump in energy use, but then we figure out how to do it with a lot less energy, just like DeepSeek, which is the new ChatGPT, which uses 95% less energy.

01:06:01.680 –> 01:06:14.400
I get the feeling something’s going to come along, you know, he’s like, usually that’s what happens, and then there’s a big drop in how much energy it takes, which then is also counterfeit, counter countered by more people using it.

01:06:15.520 –> 01:06:29.120
That is part of being human and working with your world and knowing what, you know, we do have to take care of our world, and that would be my main concern with any generative AI.

01:06:29.120 –> 01:06:38.480
You know, that’s where I would focus my energy and worries about generative AI, and I don’t know, I guess that’s where.

01:06:38.480 –> 01:06:40.040
It’s a deep question, I realize, yeah.

01:06:40.040 –> 01:06:40.760
It is, it is.

01:06:42.040 –> 01:06:46.340
What creative possibilities would you encourage people to think about?

01:06:48.480 –> 01:06:55.220
I think when you go into it, how do you create something that you haven’t seen it create?

01:06:55.220 –> 01:06:57.480
You know, how can you break it?

01:06:57.480 –> 01:07:06.760
I like to go into tools and think, how can I break it and how can I, how can I use it in a way that it wasn’t meant to be used?

01:07:06.760 –> 01:07:23.700
I feel that can sometimes show an interesting and weird artistic endeavor, you know, and teach you something about both the tool you’re using and your art itself, which I think is the most important part of it.

01:07:23.700 –> 01:07:25.320
I like that.

01:07:25.320 –> 01:07:30.500
Man, there’s so many things we can talk about.

01:07:30.500 –> 01:07:33.880
Well tell me what is on the horizon for you.

01:07:33.880 –> 01:07:43.500
I think that would be kind of cool so people can, who are inclined to do so, can follow your work and maybe get some inspiration from what you have in the pipeline.

01:07:43.500 –> 01:07:59.460
So, right now I’m working on these shorts that are using Sora now, and so there will be some new Skulk stories coming out.

01:07:59.460 –> 01:08:23.660
I am also going to take that big, long 12 episode story and turn it into video-generated AI, just because something I think that I think we forget about as artists is, a lot of times, once we put something out, we feel, all right, leave it alone, it’s done, it’s happened.

01:08:23.660 –> 01:08:33.860
But if there’s something that can make you, make people see it in a new light, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with taking it and reworking it, you know?

01:08:34.280 –> 01:08:40.720
One of my favorite, I’m not a big anime person, but I’ve always appreciated Neon Genesis Evangelion.

01:08:40.720 –> 01:08:43.020
Are you familiar with that at all?

01:08:43.020 –> 01:08:43.620
No.

01:08:44.380 –> 01:08:50.980
The creator put it out first in 16 stories, and it was an anime.

01:08:50.980 –> 01:09:02.040
Then he retold the story as a manga comic book, and then he told it again in a four-part movie series.

01:09:02.040 –> 01:09:10.620
Each one taught me something new about that story, and made me see the story in an interesting light.

01:09:10.620 –> 01:09:13.680
I didn’t feel cheated that he retold the story.

01:09:13.680 –> 01:09:17.960
He added enough to it that it became something new.

01:09:17.960 –> 01:09:19.600
He remixed it.

01:09:21.380 –> 01:09:22.680
Yeah, it’s a remix.

01:09:22.680 –> 01:09:24.540
We’ve loved remixes all our lives.

01:09:25.140 –> 01:09:27.560
Some of us do.

01:09:27.560 –> 01:09:29.060
Yes, exactly.

01:09:29.060 –> 01:09:33.320
I mean, remixes have been a part of art forever.

01:09:38.900 –> 01:09:41.000
That’s really what I’m focused on right now.

01:09:43.220 –> 01:09:46.720
I’m going to start submitting to film festivals.

01:09:46.720 –> 01:09:52.160
It’s nice to see that some film festivals are accepting AI as a category.

01:09:52.440 –> 01:09:55.520
So that’s one of the focuses.

01:09:55.520 –> 01:10:11.820
And man, long-term, I would love to make it an actual possible Netflix series, or even people have been like, it would make an awesome video game, to bring it back to talking about video games.

01:10:13.320 –> 01:10:31.840
But I do, and new music, you know, I do, I feel the need for, this allows me to create new music, you know, it’s helping me see music in different ways that I didn’t see back when I was only doing music.

01:10:31.840 –> 01:10:34.120
My music was aggressive back then.

01:10:34.120 –> 01:10:41.820
And now with the stories, sometimes you need softer moments, sometimes you need, and it’s making me explore new avenues of music.

01:10:41.820 –> 01:10:46.240
So I’m excited to see where my music as a whole goes with this.

01:10:46.240 –> 01:10:47.220
That’s very cool.

01:10:47.220 –> 01:10:57.080
Well, best of luck with all the new stuff you’re thinking of and the current project you’re working on, and I’ll check out the podcast.

01:10:57.080 –> 01:10:57.880
Great talking with you.

01:10:57.880 –> 01:10:59.700
I really appreciate you spending time with me today.

01:10:59.700 –> 01:11:02.740
And yeah, great talking with you.

01:11:02.740 –> 01:11:03.080
Awesome.

01:11:03.080 –> 01:11:04.440
Thank you so much, Robonzo.

01:11:04.440 –> 01:11:06.260
Thank you for having me on the show, man.

01:11:06.260 –> 01:11:07.380
I had a great time.

01:11:07.380 –> 01:11:07.780
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01:11:09.440 –> 01:11:12.260
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01:11:12.260 –> 01:11:14.320
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01:11:14.320 –> 01:11:17.160
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01:11:17.160 –> 01:11:28.840
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01:12:01.740 –> 01:12:06.000
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01:12:06.000 –> 01:12:10.760
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01:12:10.760 –> 01:12:21.520
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01:12:21.520 –> 01:12:25.620
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01:12:28.200 –> 01:12:29.520
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01:12:29.520 –> 01:12:31.720
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