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Welcome to another episode.

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I am your host, Robonzo, and this is The Unstarving Musician, where I have conversations with independent music artists and industry professionals about the marketing, business and creative aspects of music and the music business so that you and I can better understand all the pieces of the music business and creativity in general that help us make more music and more money doing it.

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How are you?

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Where are you and what are you wearing?

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My guest for this episode is Tracee Perrin, who joined me from Nashville in this conversation.

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Tracee is a repeat offender on the podcast.

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She and I had a conversation back in January of 2024, for which there will be a link in the show notes.

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Since then, she’s been busy with several exciting projects, including her newish EP called The Clearing, and a new single called Seasons Change, a collaboration with Lauren Anderson, also in Nashville.

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In this conversation, Tracee and I discuss her ongoing transition to life in Nashville, having moved there from LA some eight years ago.

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We also discuss her collaboration with Lauren Anderson, which included a tour, and how merch sales made a significant financial difference during that tour.

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We also talk about practical strategies for staying healthy on the road, something I’ve been focused on in Liner Notes Insider, so that was exciting, and the art of music collaboration.

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Tracee also shared how her experience in marriage has surprisingly prepared her for artistic partnerships, and we explore the theme behind Seasons Change, which is embracing life’s inevitable challenge as well, pursuing something better for yourself.

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We also touch on what scares her these days, with Tracee revealing that not meeting her potential is one of her big fears.

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So whether you’re an independent musician looking for touring tips, collaboration insights, or just some inspiration for your creative journey, this conversation has something valuable for you.

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You can find more about Tracee at traceperrinmusic.com, and that’s Tracee, I’m going to spell it.

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No, you better look at the show notes.

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If you want to hear our previous conversation, check out episode 295 where we discussed her single Poison in the Water, Nashville’s Population Explosion, Self-Care for Vocalists, Musical Theater, and her 2024 release plans at that time.

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Now, ladies, gents, earthlings, here’s me speaking with the talented Tracee Perrin.

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I like your fancy looking microphone.

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I know.

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It’s a new one I’m trying out.

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I don’t know if this is going to work out.

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Trying it out on me, huh?

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I was, yeah.

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It looks good.

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It looks fancy.

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What kind is it?

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It is a Sampson condenser mic, USB condenser mic.

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Okay.

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Man, those things can be so sensitive too, but that’s cool.

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Is it sounding okay on your end?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I can hear you.

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I think it’s going to work.

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I got it.

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There’s a store here called McKays, and it’s like a buy-sell-trade bookstore, electronics, stuff like that, CDs, records, and all of that.

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I think it’s like a $250 mic.

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I got it for like 30 bucks, brand new.

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Oh, nice.

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Yeah.

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How did that happen?

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I looked around like, does anyone else, is this right?

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Is this wrong?

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Does anyone else see this?

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I’m just going to keep it to myself, you know?

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Yeah, yeah.

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Just lucked out.

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Yeah.

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That’s great.

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Wow.

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Are you in Nashville today?

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I am, yes.

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How long have you lived there now?

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It’ll be 11 years in June, this June.

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11 years.

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Do you still get back to LA?

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Not very often.

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We get back to LA about once a year, but we’d like to start increasing that a little bit.

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It’s just hard to find the right chunk of time where all my husband, son, and I can all go, you know, and visit.

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I was looking at my notes.

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I thought, God, it seems like so much longer ago, but we last spoke on January 4th of last year.

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But I think what was really making me feel like, gosh, it seemed like it was so much longer.

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So I’m like, I forgot we’re in like 2025.

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Yeah.

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It seems like a whole different world in a lot of ways.

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Yeah.

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When did you release your EP?

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I know you had, forgetting the name of the song, The Poison in the Water.

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Poison in the Water, yes.

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I had the single out when we spoke last, or was just about to come out one or the other.

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So the EP, I released the EP March 8th of 2024.

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It’s been just over a year.

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Yeah.

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So it’s flown by for sure.

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It just sort of was reflecting on that because March 8th is also my birthday.

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And it just kind of like, I feel like it flew by for sure.

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Wow.

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That’s cool.

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I saw you had a birthday not too long ago.

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I thought it was the 10th, but it’s the 8th, huh?

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It’s the 8th.

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I had a show on the 10th, a big show on the 10th that was sort of, I turned into kind of like my birthday celebration.

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Yeah, yeah.

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So yeah.

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Yeah, the EP sounds great.

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Really nice.

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I checked out your single too.

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Super nice.

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How did you meet Lauren?

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Lauren and I met, so I do real estate as one of my day jobs, and I’ve done that for 10 years this July.

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And so Lauren and I happen to be agents of the same real estate brokerage maybe six years ago, six, seven years ago, 2018-ish.

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So we met each other initially then, although we didn’t really connect on a deeper level.

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We kind of knew we both did music in some capacity.

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She was certainly doing a lot more at the time than I was.

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But then fast forward years later, kind of, I think about 2022 or so, we just kept randomly seeing each other at different, either like music events or things around, and just sort of recognized each other a bit.

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And then finally, we’re just like, why don’t we just have lunch, you know?

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We seem to be running in the same circles in different ways, and let’s just sit down and have lunch and get to know each other a little more.

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Yeah, and so that’s kind of how we started.

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We just kind of hit it off really well.

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We get along so well and we have a good time together.

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We laugh a lot together.

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So it’s been a good treasure being her friend and collaborator.

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Yeah.

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It just occurred to me when you’re going about life in Nashville and you have like coworkers and stuff that, you know, maybe half of them are musicians in Nashville.

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You know, it’s a pretty sure bet.

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Somebody is going to, yeah, a good chunk of people.

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So yeah.

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That’s funny.

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So I meant to ask you like how it’s been a year.

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I know Nashville is growing like a weed, but how are you liking, how are you liking it?

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Yeah, it’s been Nashville or, yeah.

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You know, Tennessee is quite an interesting place.

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I think it’s been a bit frustrating, if I’m honest, for a family like ours.

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It’s something that we’re just sort of like, is this our, you know, how long are we going to dig in and put up with it in a way?

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So I’ve just really tried to stay kind of as active as I can with everything else going on in terms of, you know, showing up and supporting communities that are really struggling here right now.

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So that’s kind of been at the forefront for us a little bit.

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But there are so many great things about our community here in Nashville that I really treasure.

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I feel like, you know, I’ve grown so much musically, I’ve grown so much in my songwriting, and I’m just so grateful for all the musicians and the people that I do know that inspire me and that encourage and support me.

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I don’t know that if we had stayed in LA, if I would have really had that kind of closeness and community with people.

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So for that, that is a huge, you know, a huge win for me here.

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And also, you know, we love our home, we have space, you know, we have just access to downtown easily, and my son has a great school, and we’re just sort of in a good place in that way right now.

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That also would be hard to replicate, I think, somewhere else, especially if we, you know, were to return to Los Angeles.

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I don’t know that, again, that we would really enjoy the kind of amenities that we have here in this way.

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So it’s sort of a, you know.

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We have friends in Cadetra, Mexico, where we live, who moved from LA, and I don’t know where you were, but wow, they have really, they’re living on a complete opposite spectrum here.

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It was kind of rough.

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They were working in the entertainment industry too, like in film and TV, and now they live in this insanely beautiful high-rise apartment with an insanely beautiful view for almost nothing.

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In Mexico?

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Yeah.

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Oh my gosh.

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It’s really, it was something to hear over time, you know, the stories that they had.

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But I know, I have a, I probably shared this with you last time we spoke, but I have a younger brother who lives in Nashville with his wife, and she’s like the state controller of Tennessee.

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She just got promoted, but she’s been with the state for a long time.

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But it’s, I mean, it’s a nice place to visit, Nashville is, and you sure have a lot of nice restaurants and all the great musicians.

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Yeah, we have a lot of great places.

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Yes, it’s a great place to come and eat.

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There’s beautiful parks and hiking trails, you know, all of that stuff is very plentiful.

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And so we definitely take advantage of that as much as we can, and we enjoy that easy access.

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You know, you don’t have to go very far from downtown Nashville to really be feel like you’re away.

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And so that’s something else that we really enjoy here.

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Yeah, and you have wineries not far from you, so that’s nice, too.

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I know, all the things.

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So yeah, there’s something, there truly is something for everybody, I think here.

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And I think a testament to how much growth Nashville has enjoyed over the last 10 years since we’ve been here, is a kind of a testament to that, all the different places people have moved here from and how much it’s grown, I think has influenced all the different capacities of things to do.

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So yeah, I think that’s a good thing about it.

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Yeah, it’s kind of, it’s so, seems so much like Austin in the middle of Texas.

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There are really no places in Tennessee like Nashville.

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I mean, in Texas, you have San Antonio and Fort Worth, and even Houston to a degree.

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But yeah, it’s like you’re an oasis there of some sort, I think.

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Yeah, I would agree with that.

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Maybe Memphis.

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Yeah, sure.

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Memphis is sort of, has that kind of cool character to it and history to it and kind of vibe to it, its own vibe.

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So Chattanooga is actually also, and Knoxville.

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I haven’t spent much time in Knoxville, but we have friends in Chattanooga and we’ve gone there a fair amount of times.

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And I really love it.

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I think it has a great downtown community, great restaurants as well.

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You’re on the river and it’s a really, really neat place.

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And it’s just two-ish hours from Nashville.

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So it’s an easy drive, easy day trip type of thing.

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And then Knoxville is supposed to have a pretty vibrant arts community as well.

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My husband’s been more time there than I have, but of course you have UT, which is probably the biggest situation in Knoxville.

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But yeah, I’ve heard it’s really cool.

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How far, I mean, yeah, how far is it driving to Knoxville?

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Knoxville is about three, three and a half hours from Nashville East.

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Well, maybe next time I go to Nashville, I will get my brother and his wife to venture out to Chattanooga with us.

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Yeah, it’s an easy day trip.

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And I tell you what, I need to look up all my friends in Nashville from the podcast, yourself included, so I can try to find you and get together for something.

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Absolutely.

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Please let me know.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

00:13:06.220 –> 00:13:08.380
The trips are always so fast and furious.

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But hey, one time I got together with a couple of former guests.

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It was really nice.

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They just met us at some place close by my brother’s house, like some wings bar joint.

00:13:23.700 –> 00:13:24.020
Oh yeah.

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There are several of them.

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Same here.

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It’s so weird.

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Mexico loves its wings.

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Absolutely.

00:13:33.180 –> 00:13:34.600
Pretty funny.

00:13:34.600 –> 00:13:40.080
So how long did you and Lauren work on Seasons Change?

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And what’s the story behind it?

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And were you involved in production?

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Tell me more.

00:13:47.480 –> 00:13:49.460
We got together for a co-write.

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This would have been 2023.

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And it was our first time writing together.

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And we just were hanging out in her backyard and stuff.

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And I brought like a song idea that had a different kind of hook, but sort of had a sentiment around what Seasons Change is about.

00:14:05.260 –> 00:14:06.840
And so we were just kind of playing around.

00:14:06.840 –> 00:14:21.320
And it’s something that we were both kind of experiencing at the time where you kind of feel like you’re in a plateau in life or in your career, and you’re just sort of like stagnant and wondering how do you get out of that?

00:14:21.320 –> 00:14:24.260
And is there value in being in that position?

00:14:24.260 –> 00:14:29.580
You know, should you be pushing forward and trying to like go against the grain or go against the wind?

00:14:29.580 –> 00:14:36.200
Or do you just stay where you are and sort of see what you can embrace and learn and find in that place?

00:14:36.200 –> 00:14:46.820
Or is there value in the letting go and just letting the storm come and not trying to run away from it and maybe even run towards it and get through it faster?

00:14:46.820 –> 00:14:51.920
And so we’re just both in that kind of place in our careers and everything.

00:14:51.920 –> 00:14:55.160
And so, yeah, that’s kind of where it was inspired from.

00:14:55.160 –> 00:14:57.260
We worked, so we kind of wrote it.

00:14:57.260 –> 00:15:00.900
And then it’s one of those things that kind of both of us put away for a while.

00:15:00.900 –> 00:15:08.080
Like we just kind of didn’t think about, I think we didn’t have, there was a couple of things that we hadn’t finished and like really ironed out.

00:15:08.080 –> 00:15:16.400
We just kind of, oh, we’ll get back together and do it, but then Lauren texted me and she said, hey, I’m starting to play out Seasons Change and want to know what you think.

00:15:16.400 –> 00:15:22.000
And she was going to play some shows with the band and they’re playing around, trying different arrangements and stuff.

00:15:22.000 –> 00:15:22.660
And so like, you know what?

00:15:22.660 –> 00:15:24.520
I need to revisit that too.

00:15:24.520 –> 00:15:34.520
And at the time she was playing it more like we recorded it, like just a slower pace, even slower than the recording and really kind of drawn out.

00:15:34.520 –> 00:15:39.820
And I was playing it like much, it was an up tempo song for me.

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And then I started to kind of play around with how she was doing it and really started to like kind of digging into it a little bit more.

00:15:47.060 –> 00:15:55.980
And so we kind of became on the same wavelength and it became just a part of my set list and a good part of her set list as well.

00:15:55.980 –> 00:16:00.240
And then in August last year, we had the opportunity to do a small tour together.

00:16:00.240 –> 00:16:10.100
And so that was a great opportunity for us to sing it together and do harmonies and we would trade off gigs and she would take the lead on one and I would take the lead on other gigs.

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We kind of switched off that way.

00:16:11.480 –> 00:16:15.560
And so when we got back, we thought, you know what, that felt really good.

00:16:15.560 –> 00:16:19.240
We really believe in this song and why don’t we record it as a duet?

00:16:19.240 –> 00:16:20.440
You know, she’s done that before.

00:16:20.440 –> 00:16:20.840
I haven’t.

00:16:20.840 –> 00:16:22.900
It was my first foray into that.

00:16:22.900 –> 00:16:29.700
So we got together with the Blue House Band is kind of a band here that they play a lot together and you could hire them as a band.

00:16:30.220 –> 00:16:33.820
And then they also do a live band open mic.

00:16:33.820 –> 00:16:40.980
Have you heard of that concept where you show up with a song, you give them your charts, they’ve never heard it before and they like back you up in the moment.

00:16:40.980 –> 00:16:42.300
Terrifying.

00:16:42.300 –> 00:16:43.060
Terrifying.

00:16:43.800 –> 00:16:47.120
But it’s amazing since they’re such musicians.

00:16:47.120 –> 00:16:49.160
But they also can do music production.

00:16:49.160 –> 00:16:54.620
And Lauren had played with them, she’d hired them as her band for different gigs out of town and stuff.

00:16:54.620 –> 00:16:57.260
So she had had experience and had done one or two singles with them.

00:16:58.040 –> 00:17:01.180
So yeah, we got together with them and kind of ironed it out.

00:17:01.180 –> 00:17:05.140
And we were definitely in the room and in the process through that whole thing.

00:17:05.140 –> 00:17:06.840
So that’s cool.

00:17:06.840 –> 00:17:11.400
And the small tour, you mentioned how how many dates was that?

00:17:11.400 –> 00:17:15.020
Where was it kind of close or far?

00:17:15.020 –> 00:17:16.740
Yeah, it was what did we do?

00:17:16.740 –> 00:17:20.500
It was about five or six days.

00:17:20.500 –> 00:17:23.700
We had four shows in that time frame.

00:17:23.700 –> 00:17:29.120
And it was we started out in Roanoke, went all the way up to Rochester, Massachusetts and then back down.

00:17:29.120 –> 00:17:34.040
So we had Roanoke, Pittsburgh, Rochester, Mass, DC.

00:17:34.040 –> 00:17:35.920
And then we drove back.

00:17:35.920 –> 00:17:39.200
Did one or both of you kind of have some presence there of any kind?

00:17:39.200 –> 00:17:43.040
Or were you trying to breaking some new markets with those cities?

00:17:43.040 –> 00:17:46.900
For both of us, it was a little bit of a new markets for sure.

00:17:46.900 –> 00:17:50.920
Roanoke, I had played, I played gigs there several times.

00:17:50.920 –> 00:17:52.900
Then we have some friends there.

00:17:53.000 –> 00:17:57.440
So we did a house concert and that was from someone like a friend of a friend.

00:17:57.440 –> 00:18:05.740
And so she corralled her community and we were able to have a really nice intimate evening with those folks.

00:18:05.740 –> 00:18:08.360
And then Pittsburgh was definitely new for us.

00:18:08.360 –> 00:18:11.220
Rochester was new for us.

00:18:11.220 –> 00:18:12.640
And that was a concert series.

00:18:12.640 –> 00:18:15.840
My friend Rebecca runs every year called Bennett Farm Concert Series.

00:18:15.840 –> 00:18:19.720
It’s a wonderful day on a beautiful farm of live music.

00:18:19.720 –> 00:18:23.500
And so that for me was definitely a new market, which and DC as well.

00:18:23.500 –> 00:18:26.460
So I really do want to explore the Northeast a lot more.

00:18:26.640 –> 00:18:27.680
I love it up there.

00:18:27.680 –> 00:18:29.260
I went to college up there.

00:18:29.260 –> 00:18:32.720
And so I’d love to get back up there and do more.

00:18:32.720 –> 00:18:33.020
Nice.

00:18:33.020 –> 00:18:35.820
Everything out of Nashville is a new market for me.

00:18:37.060 –> 00:18:37.760
Yeah, that’s cool.

00:18:37.760 –> 00:18:42.640
And was it just the two of you or did you travel or meet up with any guys, have any pick up bands?

00:18:42.640 –> 00:18:44.440
No, it’s just the two of us.

00:18:44.480 –> 00:18:57.240
At the house concerts, we would try to kind of do like a kind of like a Nashville writers round type of vibe where we would just be up there together and we could harmonize for each other and just trade off songs for a couple of hours and have an intermission.

00:18:57.240 –> 00:18:59.000
And yes, that’s the approach we took there.

00:18:59.000 –> 00:19:04.380
And then at the other gigs, we had our respective, you know, 45 minute hour sets.

00:19:04.380 –> 00:19:05.240
Cool.

00:19:05.240 –> 00:19:06.300
Sounds fun.

00:19:06.300 –> 00:19:06.820
A lot of fun.

00:19:06.820 –> 00:19:12.120
A lot of, you know, a lot of hustle to be places on time.

00:19:12.120 –> 00:19:12.920
So yeah.

00:19:13.880 –> 00:19:20.860
Yeah, I’ve been talking to people about writing, about talking on the podcast, about touring.

00:19:20.860 –> 00:19:32.840
I’ve done very little, basically small things like what you’re describing, maybe even smaller, but you know, I just hear and read so much about the economic difficulties of doing them.

00:19:32.840 –> 00:19:38.200
And, you know, it just has become, I guess, an investment in fan base building.

00:19:38.320 –> 00:19:44.260
But, you know, I repeatedly find reasons to get a little angry about it.

00:19:44.260 –> 00:19:52.240
You know, I was listening to The Black Keys on, on, oh, I can’t remember, Broken Record.

00:19:52.240 –> 00:20:02.860
And it was fairly recent, and those guys, I mean, you know, I know they haven’t been doing large tours forever, but they’ve done some large tours, and they still haven’t made money on their tours.

00:20:03.600 –> 00:20:04.660
No, really.

00:20:04.660 –> 00:20:11.440
Now, I mean, a lot of that is because they’ve done some things in Europe, which, you know, increases the expenses.

00:20:13.280 –> 00:20:23.640
But yeah, the interviewer was asking him, a great interviewer, whose name I don’t even recall, but he was really asking him some questions about it, like, man, can’t you audit that stuff?

00:20:23.640 –> 00:20:29.360
And I think, you know, I sort of got the impression that they did do that, and it was just so horrifying.

00:20:29.360 –> 00:20:42.740
They didn’t really want to talk about it a lot, but so I guess they do okay when they travel domestic, I mean, when they tour domestically in the US and they’re in the right situations, but it hasn’t always been that way.

00:20:42.740 –> 00:20:47.860
And I’m just like, how does a band like that, you know, not make money?

00:20:47.860 –> 00:20:49.160
I don’t get it.

00:20:49.160 –> 00:21:08.800
Yeah, that’s stressful, especially as an artist like myself, where you’re like, yeah, I think it really, I think it’s a mindset shift where it’s not, your lucrative time, it’s your fan base building, it’s your chops, you know, exploring in your music and your live presentation.

00:21:08.800 –> 00:21:12.980
I don’t think that we lost money on that tour.

00:21:12.980 –> 00:21:13.400
That’s a win, man.

00:21:13.400 –> 00:21:15.500
We didn’t make a whole lot thanks to merch.

00:21:15.500 –> 00:21:16.640
Merch was a saving grace.

00:21:16.640 –> 00:21:30.920
The gigs really didn’t pay, you know, the two of them were house concerts, but we sold a lot of merch and that’s kind of how we were able to, you know, not be in the red a lot and then be able to kind of split expenses, hotels, and things like that.

00:21:30.920 –> 00:21:36.720
We brought a lot of food with us, you know, we didn’t really stop for, you know, buying a lot of things or anything like that.

00:21:36.720 –> 00:21:40.240
So it was really just gas and kind of places to stay, really.

00:21:40.240 –> 00:21:45.640
So she used like hotel points one time, and so, you know, you piece it together.

00:21:45.640 –> 00:21:47.700
Yeah, well, that’s great.

00:21:47.700 –> 00:21:52.660
You know, the merch thing is a recurring theme for artists around this level.

00:21:52.660 –> 00:21:55.560
And I heard a heartbreaking story just indirectly, actually.

00:21:55.560 –> 00:21:57.340
I interviewed a guy named Abe Partridge.

00:21:57.440 –> 00:21:59.240
He’s really interesting.

00:21:59.260 –> 00:22:03.880
He’s been involved in this podcast, which I listened to my first episode.

00:22:04.100 –> 00:22:08.920
The topic is quite left field for me.

00:22:08.920 –> 00:22:14.440
He’s kind of a guest, I’m sorry, a guest host or a co-host, not the producer of the podcast.

00:22:14.440 –> 00:22:17.560
Anyway, the podcast is super nice.

00:22:17.560 –> 00:22:19.640
And the one I listened to was True Crime.

00:22:19.640 –> 00:22:20.780
I don’t know.

00:22:20.780 –> 00:22:25.620
I don’t think that’s the way it started out, but it’s like a second season thing in the first episode.

00:22:26.140 –> 00:22:47.140
It was really good, but just as a side note, he was telling a story about being on a tour with another musician who he was trying to make sure got out of it financially unscathed and his SUV got broken into and all their merch got stolen.

00:22:47.140 –> 00:22:48.380
I know.

00:22:48.380 –> 00:22:50.640
I’m like, oh man, that’s just-

00:22:50.640 –> 00:22:52.940
What are they gonna do with his merch?

00:22:52.940 –> 00:22:53.680
That’s what he said.

00:22:53.960 –> 00:22:59.920
He was like, if you’re listening to this, he goes, you probably found out my merch isn’t worth anything to you.

00:22:59.920 –> 00:23:01.180
I forgive you.

00:23:01.180 –> 00:23:01.840
I forgive you.

00:23:01.840 –> 00:23:04.480
If you can give it back to me, it would be amazing.

00:23:06.200 –> 00:23:08.600
But they lost some gear too, a little bit of gear, I think.

00:23:08.600 –> 00:23:11.180
But I was just like, oh my God.

00:23:11.180 –> 00:23:11.500
That’s just-

00:23:11.500 –> 00:23:13.840
That’ll take the wind out of the sails for the minute.

00:23:13.840 –> 00:23:14.820
Yeah, for sure.

00:23:14.820 –> 00:23:15.960
That’s unfortunate.

00:23:15.960 –> 00:23:16.260
I know.

00:23:16.260 –> 00:23:22.320
I was thinking, well, that’s another thing to take inside your hotel room with you, I guess, because that’s the one thing you don’t want to lose.

00:23:23.580 –> 00:23:23.940
I know.

00:23:23.940 –> 00:23:29.480
Yeah, we were good about taking our guitars and stuff, and luckily, we didn’t really have to bring.

00:23:29.480 –> 00:23:35.740
We had like, she had like an all-in-one type of PA amp thing, but we usually just brought in our guitars to the hotel room.

00:23:36.280 –> 00:23:39.160
We didn’t bring in our merch, but for future reference.

00:23:40.180 –> 00:23:48.360
But there were times that I was like, keeping one eye open and listening for Eddie’s shenanigans outside the motel room door.

00:23:49.120 –> 00:23:52.660
Well, given that it’s, I mean, I wouldn’t have thought of it, I guess.

00:23:52.660 –> 00:23:53.040
I don’t know.

00:23:53.040 –> 00:23:53.580
Maybe I would.

00:23:53.580 –> 00:23:58.580
I’m kind of that way a little like, I know I just, things happen.

00:23:58.580 –> 00:24:02.240
And I probably would be the type of person like, I’m taking this merch in, let’s take it in.

00:24:02.260 –> 00:24:07.800
Cause I mean, if you think about, like you said, that’s how you put the whole thing together.

00:24:07.800 –> 00:24:10.580
Without it, it would have been a lot different, much different story anyway.

00:24:10.580 –> 00:24:11.280
Terrible story.

00:24:11.280 –> 00:24:12.500
I haven’t talked to him since I learned that.

00:24:12.900 –> 00:24:19.840
He didn’t even tell me on the, we just didn’t, it just so happened we didn’t broach the subject, I guess.

00:24:19.840 –> 00:24:28.060
But we were talking about, by the way, I’m curious for your thoughts on this because something else I’m just starting to write about is staying healthy on the road.

00:24:28.060 –> 00:24:30.900
So I don’t know how often you tour, how long you tour.

00:24:30.900 –> 00:24:35.040
You were talking about taking food, which is a great idea.

00:24:35.040 –> 00:24:38.760
Is that something that has popped in your head in the past or this last time?

00:24:38.760 –> 00:24:41.880
Do you have things that you make sure to do?

00:24:41.880 –> 00:24:43.340
I mean, that was my first tour.

00:24:43.900 –> 00:24:46.440
Lauren is much more seasoned at it than I.

00:24:46.440 –> 00:24:50.980
So we both, we brought like, made like sandwiches and things like that, apples and stuff.

00:24:50.980 –> 00:24:57.520
And so the first like couple of days, you feel like you got this, like you’re hydrating.

00:24:57.520 –> 00:25:05.000
And then you feel like the next few days, you’re like, oh gosh, like we’re stopping all the time if we have to go to the bathroom and we’re really tired now.

00:25:05.000 –> 00:25:10.460
And so we just like are snacking to stay awake on the road or, you know, that kind of stuff.

00:25:10.740 –> 00:25:16.900
And so I think we started out with, she had protein shakes with her and stuff like that.

00:25:16.900 –> 00:25:22.920
And then you’re seven hours into the drive, you’re like, man, I’m just like, I’m hungry and I’ll just eat whatever.

00:25:22.920 –> 00:25:26.620
And I’m tired and I’ll just eat whatever just to kind of push through and stuff.

00:25:26.620 –> 00:25:34.940
And so I found that to be challenging on sort of the second half of the trip, when it was starting to just kind of, you know, wear on me a little bit.

00:25:34.940 –> 00:25:51.720
And we did try to do like some stretching and you know, some things in the hotel room, but we would often get in so late and have to leave so early, that it was again hard to really find good chunks of time to really, you know, center our bodies in that way.

00:25:51.720 –> 00:26:17.920
So, you know, that’s definitely food for thought again, for you know, the next time I would do that, I just sort of planned to maybe stay and do one or like two gigs in a certain place where you can spend time, you know, overnight, not just have to get in the car right away and drive nine more hours or whatever, that you can actually take that breath, you know, and just be a little more conscious about your physical health and stamina, you know, for seeing it through.

00:26:17.920 –> 00:26:19.000
Yeah.

00:26:19.000 –> 00:26:23.880
If you’re reminding me, I have a friend who’s been here to Mexico and we’ve done some shows together.

00:26:23.880 –> 00:26:26.980
And he’s been a road dog for a long time.

00:26:26.980 –> 00:26:28.820
And he just really pushes it hard.

00:26:28.820 –> 00:26:31.560
And he’s not a kid anymore either.

00:26:31.560 –> 00:26:33.440
And I know he’s trying to take care of himself.

00:26:33.580 –> 00:26:35.720
And he doesn’t, a pretty good job.

00:26:35.720 –> 00:26:41.720
One thing I don’t think he does well at is like a sleep routine, you know, which is a big deal.

00:26:41.720 –> 00:26:46.100
But, so he burns it pretty hard at both, you know, the candle at both ends, so to speak.

00:26:46.100 –> 00:26:53.060
But, yeah, I was wondering, you know, just to go down this rabbit hole with you for a second and get your thoughts.

00:26:53.060 –> 00:26:55.880
But, so you took food great.

00:26:55.880 –> 00:27:17.400
I was thinking like, okay, so every town has some semblance of a produce market, maybe even like a fancy farmers market, maybe if you’re really lucky, but like trying to identify through community, like asking people where those things are at before you go, just so you can like, you know, grab a couple of things.

00:27:17.400 –> 00:27:28.240
And I, you gave me an idea I hadn’t thought of, which, you know, it might, it might be helpful, but like when you have it planned out, you know where you’re going to stay.

00:27:28.240 –> 00:27:30.740
There are certain things you can order even from Amazon.

00:27:31.580 –> 00:27:36.960
I guess, especially from Amazon or wherever, and have it delivered ahead of time.

00:27:36.960 –> 00:27:39.520
Or maybe during a time that you’re going to be there.

00:27:39.760 –> 00:27:45.340
That’s food or nutrition or, you know, whatever, you know, related to your well-being.

00:27:45.340 –> 00:27:46.860
I guess you could do that.

00:27:47.100 –> 00:27:49.640
You know, obviously if it’s in the budget.

00:27:49.640 –> 00:27:57.200
And the other thing I thought of too, was to like all your venues or maybe your house concert hosts, is just let them know.

00:27:57.200 –> 00:28:06.900
This is just on the whole eating thing, but like let them know, hey, you know, one thing that we found about the road is that staying healthy is a challenge.

00:28:07.120 –> 00:28:09.740
And part of the challenge is eating well.

00:28:09.740 –> 00:28:20.680
So if there’s, are there any options, you know, if it’s like a venue especially or something, or somebody’s offering to feed you, like if there are any options for doing healthy fare, that would be amazing.

00:28:20.680 –> 00:28:21.520
Let me know what I can do.

00:28:22.200 –> 00:28:29.260
And I think that, you know, the typical venue that’s offering nothing but fried food, they might go out of their way to try and do something for you, you know?

00:28:29.260 –> 00:28:30.160
Yeah.

00:28:30.160 –> 00:28:31.180
They might.

00:28:31.180 –> 00:28:33.720
Yeah, that’s actually a great idea.

00:28:33.720 –> 00:28:35.180
You know, it makes a lot of sense.

00:28:35.180 –> 00:28:43.460
I think that slowing down and taking time to eat, those things is also can be a challenge, but that makes a lot of sense, you know?

00:28:43.460 –> 00:28:59.700
And I think like at the first, the first house concert, which was our first stop, they had a good, you know, they had like a crudite and like the hummus situation, you know, that I felt like was better than the dessert table or the other like, you know, things that they had going on.

00:28:59.700 –> 00:29:03.520
So I tried to kind of lean into that a little more.

00:29:03.520 –> 00:29:16.680
And then Pittsburgh, it was a winery, Pittsburgh Winery, and it included a meal, but it was like pizza and like things that, you know, we were going to have to like load up the car and like drive six more hours or whatever right after the gig.

00:29:17.340 –> 00:29:20.380
So it was that food that would kind of just like slow you down a little bit.

00:29:20.380 –> 00:29:32.380
And I don’t think that I was even, I don’t think I really ate anything, to be honest, maybe a couple of bites or something just because it was such, we were in such a hurry to like get the gig done and then get the loaded, get the car loaded up and get on the road again.

00:29:32.380 –> 00:29:37.460
That it was like there just wasn’t any time to kind of take time for that.

00:29:37.460 –> 00:29:39.700
Honestly, I can’t even eat at gigs.

00:29:40.800 –> 00:29:46.560
It’s hard if you’re nervous, especially, or you’re just thinking about a lot of things, or you just don’t want to be too full or burping.

00:29:46.560 –> 00:29:47.440
I don’t know.

00:29:47.440 –> 00:29:49.320
There’s a lot to think about.

00:29:49.320 –> 00:29:51.020
I’m almost always singing.

00:29:52.560 –> 00:29:55.500
It doesn’t matter if I’m sitting on the drum set singing or I’m singing in front.

00:29:55.500 –> 00:30:02.060
It’s just like, I don’t need to be feeling weird or like, yeah, whatever, indigestion or any of that.

00:30:02.060 –> 00:30:03.220
Exactly.

00:30:03.220 –> 00:30:08.700
But I’m all about like, not always, but a lot of times I’ll be like, I’ll take it to go.

00:30:08.700 –> 00:30:10.260
I could see on the road where that might be okay.

00:30:10.400 –> 00:30:13.520
Like, okay, so it’s pizza, but I’m pretty hungry.

00:30:13.520 –> 00:30:28.960
So, and then the last thing that I was planning to write about is just, well, it’s not the only thing, of course, is thinking about like, you know, just trying to have some mindfulness time in your life on the road.

00:30:28.960 –> 00:30:35.900
Maybe even more of a priority in my head is like a little, just a little bit of time to exercise with some regularity.

00:30:35.900 –> 00:30:37.000
And it doesn’t have to be a lot.

00:30:37.080 –> 00:30:46.020
I mean, I know a lot, maybe I assume a lot of people feel like if I can’t get an hour in somewhere, maybe at a gym, I’m not doing anything, but which I don’t think is true.

00:30:46.020 –> 00:30:47.280
I’m guilty of that.

00:30:47.320 –> 00:30:48.340
I just don’t think it’s true.

00:30:48.340 –> 00:30:59.920
You know, I think moving around and even I think with a hotel gym, if you have one, I mean, I think in 20 minutes, if you don’t go in there, as one of my trainers said when I was a kid and you don’t lollygag, you can get a lot done.

00:30:59.920 –> 00:31:02.420
So, yeah, I’m definitely guilty.

00:31:02.420 –> 00:31:04.680
I’m doing better at that now.

00:31:05.560 –> 00:31:10.000
And I’m incorporating more yoga into my routine, doctor’s orders type of thing.

00:31:10.000 –> 00:31:15.020
And my husband’s always said a lot of yoga, but I’m always like, I don’t feel like I’m getting a workout.

00:31:15.020 –> 00:31:20.980
It’s so, you know, but he’s like, there’s so many benefits you don’t realize that you’re getting, you know, from that.

00:31:20.980 –> 00:31:24.780
And even just this, the mindfulness part of it, that is really good for you.

00:31:24.780 –> 00:31:26.920
So I’m starting to change my thinking around that.

00:31:26.920 –> 00:31:38.860
But yes, typically I’ve been like, if I’m not like crawling down on the floor, or like I haven’t lifted something heavy and squatted, you know, 200 times that it wasn’t a quality workout.

00:31:38.860 –> 00:31:50.720
So, but these days I really only have like 10 to 20, 25 minutes, 30, if it’s my long workout at this point in time to really do something.

00:31:50.720 –> 00:31:53.820
And so I choose like focus areas, you know?

00:31:53.820 –> 00:32:03.180
And I think that’s what we did a little bit of, especially like at, when we did Stop It, rest stops or gas stations, like doing just some jumping jacks and some stretching and just, you know, that kind of stuff.

00:32:03.180 –> 00:32:05.660
Y’all were at it like a public rest stop doing jumping jacks.

00:32:05.660 –> 00:32:06.720
So ridiculous.

00:32:07.740 –> 00:32:09.020
You gotta do what you gotta do.

00:32:09.020 –> 00:32:12.640
No, I think the yoga, your husband’s right, your doctor’s right, man, the yoga thing.

00:32:13.300 –> 00:32:17.900
I’ve done yoga forever, but I’ve kind of slacked, you know, in more recent years.

00:32:17.900 –> 00:32:25.080
And I’ve had some, feels like a slew of health challenges in the last, I don’t know, two, three years.

00:32:25.080 –> 00:32:31.060
And I was reminded how great yoga is just for like, you just forget all the things that can help with.

00:32:31.060 –> 00:32:32.340
So I think it’s totally good.

00:32:32.400 –> 00:32:33.740
That’s a great idea.

00:32:33.740 –> 00:32:35.220
Yeah, great idea.

00:32:35.220 –> 00:32:53.820
Yeah, I’m gonna try to provide these, I don’t know, for some people, I know this will really work for them, but these little resources sort of like checklists and planners for, you know, eating and exercising and mindfulness and just sort of planning their whole tour to build in a little bit of time so that they’re not, you know, exhausted.

00:32:53.820 –> 00:32:54.840
So we’ll see how it goes.

00:32:55.640 –> 00:33:02.560
I mean, YouTube has great resources for any time limit of workout, any type of workout.

00:33:02.560 –> 00:33:11.760
If you have five minutes and you want to do Tabata or like, you know, a HIIT workout, like there’s just something for everybody at every age, at every stage.

00:33:11.760 –> 00:33:20.940
And so when, yeah, that’s pretty, I don’t join gyms anymore because I’m like, if I’m not going to do it in my living room, I’m not going to drive to do it.

00:33:20.940 –> 00:33:29.480
So I stopped paying for gym memberships until I’m like, consistent, you know, and so YouTube is really my gym now.

00:33:29.480 –> 00:33:33.100
And for yoga or for other types of workouts and stuff.

00:33:33.100 –> 00:33:38.220
So, and that’s something that obviously as a musician, you can, you can do anywhere and take on the road.

00:33:38.220 –> 00:33:39.160
So, yep.

00:33:39.400 –> 00:33:53.440
I love YouTube and I’m kind of laughing because I, one thing I discovered about like, checking out these new kind of workout things on YouTube, I was reminded that, oh, there’s a lot of people out there who can help you hurt yourself very easily.

00:33:54.080 –> 00:33:56.200
It’s true, you do have to be careful.

00:33:57.320 –> 00:34:04.080
Yeah, and not necessarily because you overdid it, but they might be doing some exercises that like, you didn’t need to be doing that.

00:34:04.080 –> 00:34:19.900
Yeah, you got to know your body and know your limits and modifications, you know, or just don’t do something if you don’t know modification and it just doesn’t feel like, I have really loose like knee joints and I pretty severely dislocated my knee last week.

00:34:19.900 –> 00:34:22.000
I haven’t seen the orthopedist next week and stuff.

00:34:23.120 –> 00:34:35.320
I had been up to that point in my workout routines, I’ve been incorporating yoga, I’ve been feeling really good and much looser in my joint, like looser in my muscles and stuff, and in a good way, in a more flexible way.

00:34:35.320 –> 00:34:38.000
Then that happened, just getting out of a chair.

00:34:39.040 –> 00:34:41.240
I was like, you know what?

00:34:41.240 –> 00:34:43.460
Come on, you can’t win for losing.

00:34:43.680 –> 00:34:52.060
I’m finally really leaning into all of this, and now I have to stop until I figure out how not to take my body apart when I do it.

00:34:52.480 –> 00:35:01.760
I’m always really careful about what I do with my knees, and my legs, and squatting down, and kneeling down, and all that stuff I know.

00:35:02.980 –> 00:35:06.060
So I was just sort of really like, dang, man.

00:35:06.100 –> 00:35:24.280
Yeah, that’s a good reminder, though, because one thing we, I mean, I’m very familiar with what you’re talking about, and I think one thing we have to remember is long as our bodies are still allowing us to exercise with any sort of zeal, we’re gonna get hurt once in a while.

00:35:26.180 –> 00:35:31.680
And sometimes it’ll be between the workouts of doing something stupid that you wouldn’t expect to get hurt to.

00:35:31.680 –> 00:35:33.360
Yeah.

00:35:33.360 –> 00:35:34.440
So, oh, well, well, thanks.

00:35:35.440 –> 00:35:40.160
That’s nice feedback and sharing stuff.

00:35:41.260 –> 00:35:49.380
So getting back to working with Lauren Anderson, is the first time you collaborated with someone to that degree?

00:35:49.380 –> 00:36:00.580
Yeah, I mean, I’ve co-written with people, but I’ve never recorded something, you know, co-written and then recorded something together as a duet.

00:36:00.580 –> 00:36:04.700
And that was really interesting because we’re very different singers.

00:36:04.700 –> 00:36:07.280
I don’t know if you could tell that in listening to the song.

00:36:07.280 –> 00:36:13.800
She’s like a blues rock, real like big, boomy, raspy, you know, that kind of thing.

00:36:13.800 –> 00:36:18.260
And I’m very different, but somehow together I feel like it works really well.

00:36:18.260 –> 00:36:33.200
But it was interesting just, you know, dynamic wise in the studio, just I’m sure for the engineer as well, just trying to figure out how to really balance out our voices, was something we had to work through in the mixes, for sure.

00:36:33.200 –> 00:36:47.980
But also figuring out since we most of the time had been singing it, you know, solo, like on our own at respective gigs and stuff, figuring out how we were going to combine, you know, the different parts of the song, who was going to sing what and where and when.

00:36:47.980 –> 00:37:03.240
We went through a solid number of versions of, you know, lyric sheets highlighted in different ways, trying to remember and figure out who’s going to sing where and who, you know, feeling that kind of balance of time that you’re, you know, the lead in the song.

00:37:03.240 –> 00:37:16.520
So that was, could be challenging at times, but I think we have enough respect for each other as artists and want to continue to have a good collaboration relationship that, you know, you kind of have to work through those things.

00:37:16.520 –> 00:37:25.900
And oftentimes put your ego aside, you know, and just sort of that compromise has to be there or else you’re not going to serve the song as well, I think.

00:37:25.900 –> 00:37:30.680
And the project could just become stagnant if you just hit, you know, come to an impasse.

00:37:30.680 –> 00:37:32.300
I think we worked through that a little bit.

00:37:32.300 –> 00:37:33.720
We definitely faced that a little bit.

00:37:33.720 –> 00:37:39.240
But I think that the final version that we got, I think feels really good to both of us.

00:37:39.240 –> 00:37:42.960
And so, you know, it worked out in the end.

00:37:42.960 –> 00:37:45.140
Yeah, it sounds amazing.

00:37:45.140 –> 00:37:52.480
I’ll have to listen to some of her stuff on her own because what you described isn’t what I would have necessarily expected.

00:37:52.480 –> 00:38:02.800
I was listening to your EP, so I heard you in the duet and then I was listening to your EP and it’s different, right?

00:38:02.800 –> 00:38:03.360
Yeah.

00:38:03.360 –> 00:38:11.840
But you two had a great dynamic on the recording and it sounds like you did some good work to figure it out.

00:38:11.840 –> 00:38:22.160
Were there other, I don’t know, like learning lessons or things that you picked up from it that you take to the next time you do it with her or someone else?

00:38:23.560 –> 00:38:30.960
Well, I will say one of the other challenges and it’s more now is that when we sing it together remembering who sings what.

00:38:32.200 –> 00:38:32.440
Yeah.

00:38:32.440 –> 00:38:34.380
You know, like what part are we on?

00:38:34.380 –> 00:38:43.100
No, I think that really just being open to how a song could start out in a collaboration and where it might end up.

00:38:43.100 –> 00:38:53.500
I think that’s true with any song you might record and going into a recording session and just knowing it can again, like we think we talked about this last time, like this is the moment the song sounds this way.

00:38:53.500 –> 00:38:55.240
But again, it could live in another life.

00:38:55.240 –> 00:39:00.360
I mean, she had this idea of like, oh, this could be like in a Disney movie or something.

00:39:00.360 –> 00:39:07.080
And sort of like it could have these other iterations, which I agree with, you know, it’s sort of this is the choice we’re making right now.

00:39:07.080 –> 00:39:10.760
This feels like where we best came together with it.

00:39:10.760 –> 00:39:13.220
And I think it definitely ended up serving the song really well.

00:39:13.940 –> 00:39:18.240
I think also going into a collaboration like this, I think I’m going to do more of it.

00:39:18.240 –> 00:39:19.780
That’s I think what I learned.

00:39:19.780 –> 00:39:42.340
I really enjoyed it because you also in the promotion of it have double, you know, the power and the bandwidth and can play off of each other’s, you know, we did content days and sort of were in sync on all of that, even on the artwork and everything that we’re doing, we’re kind of doing it in a collaboration together, which again, you have to kind of do this dance about and kind of relent sometimes.

00:39:43.020 –> 00:39:46.620
So it’s almost like, it’s like, I think marriage has prepared you well.

00:39:48.240 –> 00:39:49.600
Or these kinds of things.

00:39:49.600 –> 00:39:51.780
So you just kind of have to like, yeah.

00:39:51.780 –> 00:39:58.240
But I think that that is also been a great thing is sort of that cross promotion and that kind of double duty, bringing that to it.

00:39:58.240 –> 00:40:05.440
It feels not easier, but just better when you’re someone else, you’re doing it with someone else in this way.

00:40:05.720 –> 00:40:07.000
I’m really enjoying that.

00:40:07.000 –> 00:40:13.280
And she’s again, we’re good friends, aside from being music collaborators.

00:40:13.280 –> 00:40:23.060
And so making music and art with people that you really respect and that you would be friends with outside of it, I think really does help and just makes the process more enjoyable.

00:40:23.060 –> 00:40:26.060
Yeah, that’s cool.

00:40:26.060 –> 00:40:27.620
Tell me what your content days looked like.

00:40:27.820 –> 00:40:33.640
I ask because I’m somebody who’s really struggled with the whole content day sort of concept.

00:40:33.640 –> 00:40:37.540
And I’ve had a content calendar for the longest time.

00:40:37.620 –> 00:40:41.140
And I’m kind of occasionally good about going in, putting things in there.

00:40:41.140 –> 00:40:51.080
I think my final frontier has been to, okay, now you have this stuff, go out there, get in there and schedule some things and go talk to some people and blah, blah, blah.

00:40:51.080 –> 00:41:00.440
And I really kind of have always had this classic love hate thing with social, mostly hate, but or resent, mostly resent it.

00:41:00.440 –> 00:41:05.400
But yeah, tell me what they looked like for you.

00:41:05.400 –> 00:41:06.160
They’re hilarious.

00:41:06.480 –> 00:41:08.760
I mean, I don’t do them on my own.

00:41:08.760 –> 00:41:20.940
I only really done them with Lauren and we did like, I think maybe shortly after we wrote the song, we just took two hours in a parking lot at an abandoned church and like photographed each other.

00:41:21.040 –> 00:41:26.000
And then she brought a Bluetooth speaker because she wanted to get some video content for a song she was doing.

00:41:26.000 –> 00:41:29.800
And she, you know, I filmed some video content for her in that way.

00:41:29.800 –> 00:41:40.000
And so those pictures actually like, I’ve used them a lot and they’ve been great, you know, and vice versa and that was free and it was two hours and, you know, we knocked it out.

00:41:40.000 –> 00:41:45.920
And then for, you know, the photo shoot or like kind of the cover art, we were trying to get together for Seasons Change.

00:41:45.920 –> 00:41:49.920
We were kind of in a bit of a time crunch.

00:41:49.920 –> 00:41:52.120
And there are two places we were going to kind of rent.

00:41:52.120 –> 00:41:57.860
There was like, you know, like video shoot places sort of like Airbnb, but for film and television or whatever shoots.

00:41:57.860 –> 00:41:59.360
So we were going to rent these two places.

00:41:59.360 –> 00:42:05.260
But in the time we were trying to decide which one, and they both got taken on the dates that we could do it.

00:42:05.260 –> 00:42:09.040
So we’re kind of like, I don’t know how this is going to go.

00:42:09.040 –> 00:42:15.260
Then I remembered my son’s friend’s dad has like this huge greenhouse in their backyard essentially.

00:42:15.260 –> 00:42:17.220
And he’s going to be out of town.

00:42:17.220 –> 00:42:19.460
And so he let us use his greenhouse.

00:42:19.460 –> 00:42:21.660
And so everything was dead and dormant.

00:42:21.660 –> 00:42:24.780
I think it was snowing in like 20 degrees outside.

00:42:25.860 –> 00:42:32.000
But we got a third girl that Lauren knows to film us and to take pictures of us.

00:42:32.100 –> 00:42:34.240
And then we did the same for her.

00:42:34.240 –> 00:42:37.900
So it was that bartering relationship where we had no money, no budget.

00:42:37.900 –> 00:42:43.660
I think it was $10 because I bought some flowers to like zhuzh up the dead stuff.

00:42:43.660 –> 00:42:49.540
And just that, again, in sync with other people and how can we just be mutually beneficial.

00:42:49.540 –> 00:42:51.480
And so we knocked it out in a couple of hours.

00:42:51.480 –> 00:42:55.980
We were freezing, but we got the shots that we needed to have options for the cover art.

00:42:55.980 –> 00:43:03.160
And then we went home and both worked on different mock-ups for that, you know, and just texting things back and forth.

00:43:03.160 –> 00:43:09.460
And then we just came to, you know, an agreement on what we thought looked best and sent it off.

00:43:09.460 –> 00:43:13.360
And that was sort of a 48-hour get-it-together situation.

00:43:13.360 –> 00:43:15.240
And we laughed a lot and we had a good time.

00:43:15.240 –> 00:43:20.560
And, you know, we’re good at getting like taking an hour or two and just getting focused.

00:43:20.560 –> 00:43:27.900
And just having coming to it with a bit of an idea of what you want to capture, the things you want to tackle or something like that, you know.

00:43:28.380 –> 00:43:30.800
That way, you’re not wasting time wherever you are.

00:43:30.800 –> 00:43:32.080
It’s going like, oh, I don’t know what to do.

00:43:32.080 –> 00:43:32.520
What should I do?

00:43:32.660 –> 00:43:37.740
Like having some sort of direction going into it can make the time really efficient.

00:43:37.740 –> 00:43:46.960
And again, when you have other people that can maybe be on the other side of things for you and you’re not just there like, I feel like an idiot by yourself.

00:43:46.960 –> 00:43:55.380
No, I am less likely to go to a park and sing out, you know, by myself or take pictures of myself than I am with someone else, you know.

00:43:56.820 –> 00:44:09.880
I find that to be a lot less painful because again, I’m with you, like I struggle on my own with focused content or like really intentional content that isn’t around like a show promotion or something like that.

00:44:09.880 –> 00:44:15.960
She balances it out a little bit, but just having someone else that kind of, hey, let’s just get her done, you know, like we don’t love this.

00:44:15.960 –> 00:44:18.900
It doesn’t, it’s not our favorite thing to do, but we have to do it.

00:44:18.900 –> 00:44:21.080
And just having that camaraderie really does help.

00:44:21.080 –> 00:44:22.140
I find that it really does help.

00:44:24.000 –> 00:44:32.080
So did you find things from that that you can take in to your solo silo and apply to your own content strategy?

00:44:33.160 –> 00:45:17.740
Yeah, I mean, I just need to, and I’ve been meaning to do this, it’s just sort of for myself, just take those one or two hours and just boom, boom, boom, hit things that I could release at different points in time that aren’t show specific or aren’t release specific, but just sort of are life specific, life things going on or just general, when I’m rehearsing on my own or things like that, that I always think people don’t care about, but apparently these are things people want to see, is the unpolished stuff and I’m such a perfectionist and I’m like, but apparently people want to see the cracks showing and they want to see the vulnerability in that way and the candidness of your life and how you go about your days and stuff.

00:45:17.740 –> 00:45:19.740
I need to be just more mindful of that in those moments.

00:45:19.880 –> 00:45:22.980
I’m like, let me just get 10 seconds of something.

00:45:22.980 –> 00:45:31.340
It’s hard because I’m trying to also stay present more often in my life and not just think of it about how this could translate into content or promotion.

00:45:31.340 –> 00:45:33.220
I just don’t like living that way.

00:45:33.220 –> 00:45:33.760
Yeah.

00:45:33.760 –> 00:45:34.800
I really don’t.

00:45:34.840 –> 00:45:51.920
But I recognize that I’m in a business that at this point in time just requires that on some level and I just need to lead into that a little more and remember those moments that I could capture something easily if I’m at a rehearsal or just out or whatever.

00:45:51.920 –> 00:46:13.360
Maybe that last point is something we have to think ahead about too, that like, oh, I’m going to do this thing with some people today and this would be a good place for me to do some photos or ask for some help with something or whatever it is, instead of trying to be spontaneous with it all the time or just constantly be thinking of it.

00:46:13.360 –> 00:46:13.860
Yeah.

00:46:13.860 –> 00:46:21.000
But maybe if we think like, hey, this is the day I’m going to do some of that and I bet I can enlist a little help from someone and that might make it easier.

00:46:21.000 –> 00:46:22.260
I don’t know.

00:46:22.260 –> 00:46:22.840
Yeah, it’s true.

00:46:22.840 –> 00:46:24.000
Lauren is very good at that.

00:46:24.000 –> 00:46:29.940
She doesn’t love it either, but she’s like, all right, I guess we should get a selfie or like, all right, I guess we just film a little thing.

00:46:29.940 –> 00:46:30.920
And I’m like, okay.

00:46:30.920 –> 00:46:35.400
So oftentimes she’s doing it on her phone and she’s just like, eardrumming it to me.

00:46:36.580 –> 00:46:37.200
That’s great.

00:46:37.200 –> 00:46:39.340
And so how long have you been married?

00:46:40.520 –> 00:46:43.760
I’ve been married to be 21 years in September.

00:46:43.760 –> 00:46:44.120
Wow.

00:46:44.120 –> 00:46:44.420
Okay.

00:46:44.420 –> 00:46:45.120
So yeah, you’ve learned.

00:46:45.260 –> 00:46:52.400
I heard you say marriage prepared you for, I think it was the collaborative aspect that we were talking about.

00:46:52.400 –> 00:46:53.860
I’m married to a creative person.

00:46:53.860 –> 00:46:57.000
He’s not in music at all, but he’s a creative person.

00:46:57.000 –> 00:46:59.620
And so yeah, I’m just used to that.

00:46:59.620 –> 00:47:00.740
What does he do?

00:47:00.740 –> 00:47:03.560
So he is an artist and jewelry maker.

00:47:03.560 –> 00:47:04.360
Wow.

00:47:04.360 –> 00:47:10.020
He has a, most of his career has been, before I moved to Nashville, was in apparel design.

00:47:10.060 –> 00:47:10.360
Wow.

00:47:10.360 –> 00:47:14.360
But we moved here and there really wasn’t a market for that skill set.

00:47:14.360 –> 00:47:17.740
So he kind of had to pivot and started making jewelry.

00:47:17.740 –> 00:47:24.800
And so now he makes beautiful things and he sculpts in precious metal clay and set stones and things like that.

00:47:24.800 –> 00:47:25.800
So yeah.

00:47:25.800 –> 00:47:26.660
Well, that’s cool.

00:47:26.660 –> 00:47:26.860
Yeah.

00:47:27.300 –> 00:47:28.940
Nice to be with someone like that.

00:47:28.940 –> 00:47:33.640
Or I don’t know, maybe you’re too much alike.

00:47:34.940 –> 00:47:35.840
We’re both Pisces.

00:47:35.840 –> 00:47:38.140
Actually our whole household is Pisces.

00:47:38.140 –> 00:47:39.760
Our birthdays are eight days apart.

00:47:39.880 –> 00:47:41.060
All of us.

00:47:41.060 –> 00:47:42.080
That’s funny.

00:47:42.080 –> 00:47:49.420
You know, I think you kind of talked about this, but maybe I didn’t really ask too many questions.

00:47:49.420 –> 00:47:52.260
And tell me if you were really talking about the same.

00:47:52.400 –> 00:48:08.220
I think that when you mentioned the theme behind Seasons Change, you may have also been referring to something I believe you wrote, which is embracing and even chasing down the inevitable challenges while in pursuit of something better for yourself.

00:48:09.200 –> 00:48:11.860
Was that all kind of part of the same theme?

00:48:11.860 –> 00:48:12.300
It is.

00:48:12.300 –> 00:48:12.660
Yeah.

00:48:12.660 –> 00:48:20.260
I mean, I had heard or learned that in a storm, that buffaloes will charge the storm while other animals will run away.

00:48:20.260 –> 00:48:20.620
No kidding.

00:48:20.620 –> 00:48:23.180
And as a result, they get through it faster.

00:48:23.180 –> 00:48:38.920
And so I just think that’s a beautiful metaphor for how we could also face challenge and adversity and obstacles is sort of not running away from that or just trying to like put, you know, ignore it or something because it never goes away.

00:48:38.920 –> 00:48:42.180
You at some point have to face those hard things.

00:48:42.180 –> 00:48:46.760
And so what would it look like to just sort of say, hey, it is fricking raining.

00:48:46.760 –> 00:48:51.280
Let me just open my arms and like embrace it and dancing it and running it.

00:48:51.280 –> 00:48:55.460
And what can I learn through that, through being in the trenches of that?

00:48:55.460 –> 00:49:03.540
As opposed to how can I put it away for as long as possible and ignore it and not, you know, because it just those things never go away.

00:49:04.120 –> 00:49:21.560
But also, when as you know, when you’re in pursuit of something like a musical career or a creative endeavor or anything you’re trying to achieve, there are going to be times where you are having momentum and times when it feels like you’re taking steps back or you’re just not getting anywhere.

00:49:21.560 –> 00:49:28.640
But that doesn’t always last again, because it ebbs and flows and sometimes you’ll feel so that’s where we kind of brought in that concept of seasons change.

00:49:28.640 –> 00:49:37.720
Like if it’s not, you don’t feel like it’s your season right now, just hang tight and wait, and there’s some beauty in the waiting.

00:49:37.720 –> 00:49:38.760
I like that.

00:49:38.760 –> 00:49:42.720
And you’re so right about leading with the metaphor there of the buffalo.

00:49:42.720 –> 00:49:54.360
I didn’t know that, but it was quickly reflecting on a couple of very challenging in my own head things and just making a decision to confront them.

00:49:56.180 –> 00:49:59.980
Just takes a lot of weight off of your psyche, doesn’t it?

00:50:00.300 –> 00:50:05.460
Because otherwise, you just put it off and it just festers, makes you crazy.

00:50:05.460 –> 00:50:07.760
Yeah, and the anxiety just creeps up.

00:50:07.760 –> 00:50:12.860
It will manifest, even if you’re not dealing with it, it will manifest in some way.

00:50:12.860 –> 00:50:20.620
Yeah, I just think it’s a good practice to challenge yourself, to embrace it and see maybe it’s not that bad.

00:50:20.620 –> 00:50:24.920
Maybe what we’re so scared of is actually not that scary.

00:50:24.980 –> 00:50:30.620
Who knows, but maybe it is, but I think that just give it time.

00:50:30.620 –> 00:50:43.400
Yeah, I think I’ve subconsciously figured out if I lose a little sleep, as in I’m literally thinking about it in the middle of the night or the morning, it’s time to go ahead and confront it because I’m just getting like, okay, this is ridiculous, right?

00:50:43.400 –> 00:50:45.380
Yeah, exactly.

00:50:45.380 –> 00:50:50.200
So it’s a hard life lesson, it really is, but it is, I think it’s an ongoing practice.

00:50:50.200 –> 00:50:59.140
It’s not something I think anyone ever really arrives to because different challenges have different levels, but it’s a practice, I think.

00:50:59.140 –> 00:51:08.060
Kind of like meditating, it’s like when you ruminate and lose sleep over it, it’s like you’ve lost focus and then when you make a decision to do something about it, you’re like, okay, I’m back on again.

00:51:08.060 –> 00:51:10.400
Yeah, exactly.

00:51:10.400 –> 00:51:17.180
Well, so on that theme, something I thought to ask, see where it goes, maybe nowhere, but what scares you these days?

00:51:18.540 –> 00:51:20.500
Everything.

00:51:20.500 –> 00:51:22.960
That’s a loaded question today, isn’t it?

00:51:22.960 –> 00:51:25.340
Just like leaving the house scares me.

00:51:25.340 –> 00:51:38.760
Drivers are crazy here and there’s so many things in the world that are just like, all the time and I’m a parent of a middle schooler and that terrifies me.

00:51:38.760 –> 00:51:44.480
He’ll be a teenager next year and it’s just like, I feel like everything is what is happening.

00:51:47.160 –> 00:51:56.500
At the core of it, I think one thing that really, if I can be vulnerable, one thing that really does scare me is just never having the opportunity to achieve my potential.

00:51:56.500 –> 00:51:58.820
That really doesn’t sit well with me.

00:51:59.800 –> 00:52:03.680
I feel like that would be just, that scares me a lot.

00:52:03.680 –> 00:52:05.920
Well, guess what?

00:52:05.920 –> 00:52:08.420
I think you’re meeting your potential.

00:52:08.420 –> 00:52:08.820
Thank you.

00:52:08.820 –> 00:52:10.440
That’s very nice of you to say.

00:52:10.440 –> 00:52:18.540
Well, you’re here, you’re doing the thing, you’re living, you got a child and married 20-some years and collaborating, and you got the whole beautiful voice.

00:52:18.540 –> 00:52:21.020
And so, yeah, there’s more ahead, I know.

00:52:21.020 –> 00:52:24.640
But you’re young, too.

00:52:24.640 –> 00:52:27.920
I mean, could be younger, could be younger.

00:52:27.920 –> 00:52:29.460
You are.

00:52:29.460 –> 00:52:33.660
I love talking to like truly, like, you know, I assume you’re not in your 20s.

00:52:33.660 –> 00:52:34.320
Maybe you are.

00:52:34.320 –> 00:52:35.960
You look really good in my 20s.

00:52:35.960 –> 00:52:40.040
Well, like, I just love talking to a 20 year old who says, I feel like I’m late to the party.

00:52:40.660 –> 00:52:41.380
This is music.

00:52:41.380 –> 00:52:44.420
And I’m like, oh man, dude.

00:52:44.420 –> 00:52:45.320
Lord.

00:52:45.320 –> 00:52:48.020
I wish I would have had that thought when I was your age.

00:52:48.020 –> 00:52:48.580
I guess.

00:52:48.700 –> 00:52:50.400
I guess that means the party is over for me.

00:52:50.400 –> 00:52:52.420
I don’t know.

00:52:52.420 –> 00:52:53.260
No, that’s great.

00:52:53.260 –> 00:52:54.520
Well, thanks for being late.

00:52:54.520 –> 00:52:55.000
Yeah.

00:52:55.000 –> 00:52:55.740
Thanks for sharing that.

00:52:55.740 –> 00:52:57.500
Now you’re, you’re good, man.

00:52:57.500 –> 00:53:00.840
I think you’re, you’re meeting your potential and then some.

00:53:00.840 –> 00:53:01.400
Thank you.

00:53:01.400 –> 00:53:02.540
That’s kind of you.

00:53:02.540 –> 00:53:04.260
It’s great talking with you.

00:53:04.260 –> 00:53:06.520
Likewise, I’m glad you’re able to reconnect.

00:53:06.520 –> 00:53:06.800
For sure.

00:53:06.800 –> 00:53:11.700
And please, if you are coming to Nashville, let me know.

00:53:11.700 –> 00:53:12.500
I will.

00:53:12.500 –> 00:53:26.640
You, you don’t know how much I enjoy these conversations and like the idea of actually getting to meet some of you once in a while is like, this is so going to be so amazing and always has been in the few times that I’ve done it.

00:53:26.640 –> 00:53:27.600
Great.

00:53:27.600 –> 00:53:29.340
So must do more, must do more.

00:53:29.340 –> 00:53:30.120
Yeah.

00:53:30.120 –> 00:53:30.860
Thank you so much.

00:53:30.860 –> 00:53:33.860
I appreciate your time to talk to you soon.

00:53:35.080 –> 00:53:37.880
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00:53:38.000 –> 00:53:40.000
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00:53:40.000 –> 00:53:42.840
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00:53:42.840 –> 00:53:56.840
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00:53:56.840 –> 00:54:00.100
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00:54:00.100 –> 00:54:11.860
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00:54:11.860 –> 00:54:16.420
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00:54:16.420 –> 00:54:27.400
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00:54:27.400 –> 00:54:31.320
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00:54:31.720 –> 00:54:36.560
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00:54:36.560 –> 00:54:47.220
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00:54:47.220 –> 00:54:51.300
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00:54:53.840 –> 00:54:55.220
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00:54:55.220 –> 00:54:57.400
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